Discussion:
"elohim" definition
(too old to reply)
moshe
2013-03-06 07:04:08 UTC
Quoted from:
https://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/465fcf2abbae6ccb?dmode=source
<snip>
That true of man generally, but this Psalm refers ...
<snip>
... so when God says of them, "ye are gods", I think it
refers to them being angels, angels who are "children
of the most High" (angels also being called the "SONS
of God" - Gen. 6:4 & Job 38:7)
Here Linda openly promotes her fallen angel theory
and yet Moshe remains silent unto her.
So when Jesus said it, he was refering to them as
fallen angels LMAO!!
And, Linda may still be selling her book for "gain"
which promotes this 'heresy'.
Are you serious? She wrote a book on that?
--
Peter
====================
Linda Lee's theory is a variation of
some beliefs that surround Genesis 6:2.
I disagree with Linda Lee's belief regarding that,
but Linda Lee's belief does not have any direct impact
on her salvation or the salvation of anyone else.
It is a "side issue".
You never did argue with me about that issue, even when we were at
odds years ago.
========================
"even when we were at odds years ago"
Do not believe it, folks.
Linda Lee and I never dated.
My ego prevents me from dating people who are prettier than I am.
========================
I wonder though what do you think about Christ/God saying to the
Israelites, "Ye are gods", when God said there were no other gods
besides Himself (Isa. 45:5, 6, & 21), and God also said that the
'other gods' weren't really gods at all, but were actually devils
(Deut. 32:17)?
=========================
This is just the way I see it.
Not written in stone.
And not written with your finger? Lol!
If you look up every instance in which that Hebrew word and related
Hebrew words occur in the Bible,
context determines definition.
Psalm 82:6http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=82&v=6&t=NKJV#conc/6
"gods" = "elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
and "Most High" = "elyon"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5945...
The Hebrew words are just relative degrees of "judge".
So you say
אלהים 'elohiym means JUDGES???
Moshe, you are so full of it.
TCross
=================

"Elohim"
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&t=KJV

"Elohim" can mean "judges" as an idiom.

Just as "Elohohim" can mean "God" as an idiom.

In the most literal sense it means "powerful".
Then it takes on more specific meanings based on context.

EXAMPLE #1:

See Genesis 23:6.
"Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty prince among us: in the choice of
our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his
sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=23&v=6&t=KJV#6

In the Hebrew that is:
"Hear us, my lord: thou art an "elohim" prince among us: in the choice
of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee
his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead."


EXAMPLE #2:

See Genesis 30:8.
"And Rachel said, With great wrestlings have I wrestled with my
sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=30&t=KJV#8

In the Hebrew that is:
"And Rachel said, With "elohim" wrestlings have I wrestled with my
sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali.

EXAMPLE #3:

See Jonah 3:3.
"So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the
LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey."

In the Hebrew that is:
"So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the
LORD. Now Nineveh was an "elohim" great city of three days' journey."

EXAMPLE #4:

See Exodus 9:28.
"Intreat the LORD for it is enough that there be no more mighty
thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no
longer."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=9&v=28&t=KJV#28

In the Hebrew that is:
"Intreat the LORD for it is enough that there be no more "elohim"
thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no
longer."

EXAMPLE #5:

See Exodus 22:8-9 which has 3 instances of "elohim" as "judges":
"If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be
brought unto the judges, [to see] whether he have put his hand unto
his neighbour's goods.
For all manner of trespass, [whether it be] for ox, for ass, for
sheep, for raiment, [or] for any manner of lost thing, which [another]
challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the
judges; [and] whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto
his neighbour."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=22&v=8&t=KJV#8

In the Hebrew that is:
"If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be
brought unto the "elohim", [to see] whether he have put his hand unto
his neighbour's goods.
For all manner of trespass, [whether it be] for ox, for ass, for
sheep, for raiment, [or] for any manner of lost thing, which [another]
challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the
"elohim"; [and] whom the "elohoim" shall condemn, he shall pay double
unto his neighbour."

EXAMPLE #6:

See I Samuel 2:25:
"If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a
man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding
they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD
would slay them."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Sa&c=2&v=25&t=KJV#25

In the Hebrew that is:
"If one man sin against another, the "elohim" shall judge him: but if
a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding
they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD
would slay them."

EXAMPLE #7:

See I Samuel 14:15:
"And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the
people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the
earth quaked: so it was a very great trembling."

In the Hebrew that is:

"And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the
people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the
earth quaked: so it was a "elohim" trembling."

- moshe
Sam Taylor
2013-03-06 07:18:37 UTC
EL=Strong or Mighty,
it does not of always Mean G-D
in the scriptures it is translated from EL, or El, and or el
as G-D,G-d, and or g-d in rank
as all caps Heavenly, or the first letter in caps as Earthly,
or all lower case, as either of a Nation, or of a local region.
You have various forms of "Mighty Ones" or Strong Ones
from Almighty, to very mighty, to Mighty.
Sam


"moshe" wrote in message news:97e3aaca-ca3d-4bf6-85c6-***@n2g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...

Quoted from:
https://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/465fcf2abbae6ccb?dmode=source
<snip>
That true of man generally, but this Psalm refers ...
<snip>
... so when God says of them, "ye are gods", I think it
refers to them being angels, angels who are "children
of the most High" (angels also being called the "SONS
of God" - Gen. 6:4 & Job 38:7)
Here Linda openly promotes her fallen angel theory
and yet Moshe remains silent unto her.
So when Jesus said it, he was refering to them as
fallen angels LMAO!!
And, Linda may still be selling her book for "gain"
which promotes this 'heresy'.
Are you serious? She wrote a book on that?
--
Peter
====================
Linda Lee's theory is a variation of
some beliefs that surround Genesis 6:2.
I disagree with Linda Lee's belief regarding that,
but Linda Lee's belief does not have any direct impact
on her salvation or the salvation of anyone else.
It is a "side issue".
You never did argue with me about that issue, even when we were at
odds years ago.
========================
"even when we were at odds years ago"
Do not believe it, folks.
Linda Lee and I never dated.
My ego prevents me from dating people who are prettier than I am.
========================
I wonder though what do you think about Christ/God saying to the
Israelites, "Ye are gods", when God said there were no other gods
besides Himself (Isa. 45:5, 6, & 21), and God also said that the
'other gods' weren't really gods at all, but were actually devils
(Deut. 32:17)?
=========================
This is just the way I see it.
Not written in stone.
And not written with your finger? Lol!
If you look up every instance in which that Hebrew word and related
Hebrew words occur in the Bible,
context determines definition.
Psalm
82:6http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=82&v=6&t=NKJV#conc/6
"gods" =
"elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
and "Most High" =
"elyon"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5945...
The Hebrew words are just relative degrees of "judge".
So you say
אלהים 'elohiym means JUDGES???
Moshe, you are so full of it.
TCross
=================

"Elohim"
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&t=KJV

"Elohim" can mean "judges" as an idiom.

Just as "Elohohim" can mean "God" as an idiom.

In the most literal sense it means "powerful".
Then it takes on more specific meanings based on context.

EXAMPLE #1:

See Genesis 23:6.
"Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty prince among us: in the choice of
our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his
sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=23&v=6&t=KJV#6

In the Hebrew that is:
"Hear us, my lord: thou art an "elohim" prince among us: in the choice
of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee
his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead."


EXAMPLE #2:

See Genesis 30:8.
"And Rachel said, With great wrestlings have I wrestled with my
sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=30&t=KJV#8

In the Hebrew that is:
"And Rachel said, With "elohim" wrestlings have I wrestled with my
sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali.

EXAMPLE #3:

See Jonah 3:3.
"So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the
LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey."

In the Hebrew that is:
"So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the
LORD. Now Nineveh was an "elohim" great city of three days' journey."

EXAMPLE #4:

See Exodus 9:28.
"Intreat the LORD for it is enough that there be no more mighty
thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no
longer."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=9&v=28&t=KJV#28

In the Hebrew that is:
"Intreat the LORD for it is enough that there be no more "elohim"
thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no
longer."

EXAMPLE #5:

See Exodus 22:8-9 which has 3 instances of "elohim" as "judges":
"If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be
brought unto the judges, [to see] whether he have put his hand unto
his neighbour's goods.
For all manner of trespass, [whether it be] for ox, for ass, for
sheep, for raiment, [or] for any manner of lost thing, which [another]
challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the
judges; [and] whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto
his neighbour."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=22&v=8&t=KJV#8

In the Hebrew that is:
"If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be
brought unto the "elohim", [to see] whether he have put his hand unto
his neighbour's goods.
For all manner of trespass, [whether it be] for ox, for ass, for
sheep, for raiment, [or] for any manner of lost thing, which [another]
challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the
"elohim"; [and] whom the "elohoim" shall condemn, he shall pay double
unto his neighbour."

EXAMPLE #6:

See I Samuel 2:25:
"If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a
man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding
they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD
would slay them."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Sa&c=2&v=25&t=KJV#25

In the Hebrew that is:
"If one man sin against another, the "elohim" shall judge him: but if
a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding
they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD
would slay them."

EXAMPLE #7:

See I Samuel 14:15:
"And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the
people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the
earth quaked: so it was a very great trembling."

In the Hebrew that is:

"And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the
people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the
earth quaked: so it was a "elohim" trembling."

- moshe
moshe
2013-03-06 09:54:44 UTC
Post by Sam Taylor
EL=Strong or Mighty,
it does not of always  Mean G-D
in the scriptures it is translated from EL, or El, and or el
as G-D,G-d, and or g-d in rank
as all caps Heavenly, or the first letter in caps as Earthly,
or all lower case, as either of a Nation, or of a local region.
You have various forms of "Mighty Ones" or Strong Ones
from Almighty, to very mighty, to Mighty.
Sam
====================

Psalm 82:1 contains both "Elohim" and "el".
"El", of course, is the root of "Elohim".

Psalm 82:1 says in the New King James:

"God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the
gods."

That translation is questionable in one way.

In the Hebrew it says:

" "Elohim" stands in the congregation of "el", He judges among
"elohim"."

A better translation, taking into the context of the words, would be:

"God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among mighty
ones."

That uses "power" as the basic definition of "el",
and "powerful ones" as the basic definition of "elohim".
Since God is omnipotent, God is "THE Power of all Powers".

"El" means "power" in:
Genesis 31:29
Proverbs 3:27
Micah 2:1
Nehemiah 5:5

"El" means "God" in:
II Samuel 22:33
Job 36:22
Psalm 68:35
Psalm 150:1

"El" means "mighty" in in Ezekiel 31:11 and "strong" in Ezekiel 32:21.
"I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the
heathen"
"The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of
hell"

- moshe
Linda Lee
2013-03-06 21:20:49 UTC
Post by Sam Taylor
EL=Strong or Mighty,
it does not of always  Mean G-D
in the scriptures it is translated from EL, or El, and or el
as G-D,G-d, and or g-d in rank
as all caps Heavenly, or the first letter in caps as Earthly,
or all lower case, as either of a Nation, or of a local region.
You have various forms of "Mighty Ones" or Strong Ones
from Almighty, to very mighty, to Mighty.
Sam
====================
Psalm 82:1 contains both "Elohim" and "el".
"El", of course, is the root of "Elohim".
"God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the
gods."
That translation is questionable in one way.
" "Elohim" stands in the congregation of "el", He judges among
"elohim"."
"God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among mighty
ones."
That uses "power" as the basic definition of "el",
and "powerful ones" as the basic definition of "elohim".
Since God is omnipotent, God is "THE Power of all Powers".
Genesis 31:29
Proverbs 3:27
Micah 2:1
Nehemiah 5:5
II Samuel 22:33
Job 36:22
Psalm 68:35
Psalm 150:1
"El" means "mighty" in in Ezekiel 31:11 and "strong" in Ezekiel 32:21.
"I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the
heathen"
"The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of
hell"
- moshe
El is defined as strength and mighty:
Heb. 410
אל
'êl
ale
Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the
Almighty (but used also of any deity).
Terry Cross
2013-03-06 21:30:25 UTC
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Sam Taylor
EL=Strong or Mighty,
it does not of always  Mean G-D
in the scriptures it is translated from EL, or El, and or el
as G-D,G-d, and or g-d in rank
as all caps Heavenly, or the first letter in caps as Earthly,
or all lower case, as either of a Nation, or of a local region.
You have various forms of "Mighty Ones" or Strong Ones
from Almighty, to very mighty, to Mighty.
Sam
====================
Psalm 82:1 contains both "Elohim" and "el".
"El", of course, is the root of "Elohim".
"God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the
gods."
That translation is questionable in one way.
" "Elohim" stands in the congregation of "el", He judges among
"elohim"."
"God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among mighty
ones."
That uses "power" as the basic definition of "el",
and "powerful ones" as the basic definition of "elohim".
Since God is omnipotent, God is "THE Power of all Powers".
Genesis 31:29
Proverbs 3:27
Micah 2:1
Nehemiah 5:5
II Samuel 22:33
Job 36:22
Psalm 68:35
Psalm 150:1
"El" means "mighty" in in Ezekiel 31:11 and "strong" in Ezekiel 32:21.
"I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the
heathen"
"The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of
hell"
- moshe
Heb. 410
אל
'êl
ale
Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the
Almighty (but used also of any deity).
"Almighty" has a similar origin. But that is not the definition of
the word in all contexts.

TCross
moshe
2013-03-06 22:06:01 UTC
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Sam Taylor
EL=Strong or Mighty,
it does not of always  Mean G-D
in the scriptures it is translated from EL, or El, and or el
as G-D,G-d, and or g-d in rank
as all caps Heavenly, or the first letter in caps as Earthly,
or all lower case, as either of a Nation, or of a local region.
You have various forms of "Mighty Ones" or Strong Ones
from Almighty, to very mighty, to Mighty.
Sam
====================
Psalm 82:1 contains both "Elohim" and "el".
"El", of course, is the root of "Elohim".
"God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the
gods."
That translation is questionable in one way.
" "Elohim" stands in the congregation of "el", He judges among
"elohim"."
"God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among mighty
ones."
That uses "power" as the basic definition of "el",
and "powerful ones" as the basic definition of "elohim".
Since God is omnipotent, God is "THE Power of all Powers".
Genesis 31:29
Proverbs 3:27
Micah 2:1
Nehemiah 5:5
II Samuel 22:33
Job 36:22
Psalm 68:35
Psalm 150:1
"El" means "mighty" in in Ezekiel 31:11 and "strong" in Ezekiel 32:21.
"I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the
heathen"
"The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of
hell"
- moshe
Heb. 410
אל
'êl
ale
Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the
Almighty (but used also of any deity).
"Almighty" has a similar origin.  But that is not the definition of
the word in all contexts.
TCross
=====================

Terry Cross is now pointing out that *context" affects word meaning?

Strange, because every time we tell Terry Cross to look at context,
she refuses to.

For example,
when I pointed out yesterday that in Psalm 82
the Hebrew words "Elyon" and "elohim"
"are just relative degrees of "judge""

Terry Cross replied:
"So you say
אלהים 'elohiym means JUDGES???
Moshe, you are so full of it."

But Psalm 82:1 says that God judges.
Verse 2 has God accusing man of judging unfairly,
with verses 3-7 giving details.
Then verse 8 calls on God to judge the Earth."

So my definition of "Elyon" and "elohim" as differing degrees of
judges
was *completely* correct within the context shown in Psalm 82.

Plus, I have shown other Bible passages where "elohim"
refers to Earthly judges.

FIRST:

See Exodus 22:8-9 which has 3 instances of "elohim" as "judges":

"If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be
brought unto the judges, [to see] whether he have put his hand unto
his neighbour's goods.
For all manner of trespass, [whether it be] for ox, for ass, for
sheep, for raiment, [or] for any manner of lost thing, which
[another]
challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before
the
judges; [and] whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto
his neighbour."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=22&v=8&t=KJV#8


In the Hebrew that is:

"If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be
brought unto the "elohim", [to see] whether he have put his hand unto
his neighbour's goods.
For all manner of trespass, [whether it be] for ox, for ass, for
sheep, for raiment, [or] for any manner of lost thing, which
[another]
challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before
the
"elohim"; [and] whom the "elohoim" shall condemn, he shall pay double
unto his neighbour."


PLUS:

See I Samuel 2:25:

"If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a
man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding
they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD
would slay them."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Sa&c=2&v=25&t=KJV#25


In the Hebrew that is:

"If one man sin against another, the "elohim" shall judge him: but if
a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him?
Notwithstanding
they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD
would slay them."

So, today Terry Cross is telling Linda Lee to define a word in
context.
But when I defined in context yesterday, Terry Cross posted that I am
full of it".

Terry Cross isn;t looking for truth.
Terry Cross is just an anti-Semite who is looking for excuses to
condemn Jews and spread her Nazi propaganda.

- moshe
Terry Cross
2013-03-06 22:16:27 UTC
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Sam Taylor
EL=Strong or Mighty,
it does not of always  Mean G-D
in the scriptures it is translated from EL, or El, and or el
as G-D,G-d, and or g-d in rank
as all caps Heavenly, or the first letter in caps as Earthly,
or all lower case, as either of a Nation, or of a local region.
You have various forms of "Mighty Ones" or Strong Ones
from Almighty, to very mighty, to Mighty.
Sam
====================
Psalm 82:1 contains both "Elohim" and "el".
"El", of course, is the root of "Elohim".
"God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the
gods."
That translation is questionable in one way.
" "Elohim" stands in the congregation of "el", He judges among
"elohim"."
"God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among mighty
ones."
That uses "power" as the basic definition of "el",
and "powerful ones" as the basic definition of "elohim".
Since God is omnipotent, God is "THE Power of all Powers".
Genesis 31:29
Proverbs 3:27
Micah 2:1
Nehemiah 5:5
II Samuel 22:33
Job 36:22
Psalm 68:35
Psalm 150:1
"El" means "mighty" in in Ezekiel 31:11 and "strong" in Ezekiel 32:21.
"I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the
heathen"
"The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of
hell"
- moshe
Heb. 410
אל
'êl
ale
Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the
Almighty (but used also of any deity).
"Almighty" has a similar origin.  But that is not the definition of
the word in all contexts.
TCross
=====================
Terry Cross is now pointing out that *context" affects word meaning?
No. Never, never, never. Context may enable us to choose which of
several definitions the speaker intended. Context does NOT change a
word's meaning.

TCross
moshe
2013-03-06 22:21:59 UTC
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Sam Taylor
EL=Strong or Mighty,
it does not of always  Mean G-D
in the scriptures it is translated from EL, or El, and or el
as G-D,G-d, and or g-d in rank
as all caps Heavenly, or the first letter in caps as Earthly,
or all lower case, as either of a Nation, or of a local region.
You have various forms of "Mighty Ones" or Strong Ones
from Almighty, to very mighty, to Mighty.
Sam
====================
Psalm 82:1 contains both "Elohim" and "el".
"El", of course, is the root of "Elohim".
"God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the
gods."
That translation is questionable in one way.
" "Elohim" stands in the congregation of "el", He judges among
"elohim"."
"God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among mighty
ones."
That uses "power" as the basic definition of "el",
and "powerful ones" as the basic definition of "elohim".
Since God is omnipotent, God is "THE Power of all Powers".
Genesis 31:29
Proverbs 3:27
Micah 2:1
Nehemiah 5:5
II Samuel 22:33
Job 36:22
Psalm 68:35
Psalm 150:1
"El" means "mighty" in in Ezekiel 31:11 and "strong" in Ezekiel 32:21.
"I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the
heathen"
"The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of
hell"
- moshe
Heb. 410
אל
'êl
ale
Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the
Almighty (but used also of any deity).
"Almighty" has a similar origin.  But that is not the definition of
the word in all contexts.
TCross
=====================
Terry Cross is now pointing out that *context" affects word meaning?
No.  Never, never, never.  Context may enable us to choose which of
several definitions the speaker intended.  Context does NOT change a
word's meaning.
TCross
===================

Since the root of "El" and "Elohim" mean "power",
one context of that "power" is "authority"
which is is translated "judges" in several places in the Bible.

But when I pointed that out,
Terry Cross said that I am "full of it".

Terry Cross, crawl back underneath your anti-Semitic rock.

- moshe
Up from the Abyss
2013-03-09 20:53:07 UTC
<snip>
Post by moshe
Since the root of "El" and "Elohim" mean "power",
one context of that "power" is "authority" which is
is translated "judges" in several places in the Bible.
For 'el [alef lamed ... ]

But not for `el ... [ayin lamed ... ]

Do I sense another yish`eke / yeshu`ah debacle on
the horizon? LMAO!
Post by moshe
But when I pointed that out,
Terry Cross said that I am "full of it".
You are full of it. And full of yourself as well.
Post by moshe
Terry Cross, crawl back underneath your anti-Semitic rock.
You should crawl back under your anti-semitic rock
as well, you have already proven you are anti-semitic
in your comments to another, but even moreso by
your actions, in which you have attempted to remove
everything "Jewish" from your "religion". I would say
"faith", but you are faithless, thus you are left with only
religion, and an empty one at that.

For not the hearers of the law are just before
God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
Up from the Abyss
2013-03-09 21:09:17 UTC
Post by moshe
Post by moshe
"El" means "mighty" in in Ezekiel 31:11 and "strong" in
Ezekiel 32:21.
You might want to check that. Ezekiel 31:11 is 'eyl [H352].

Ezekiel 32:21 is: lo 'eley giborim and could be rendered:
"to him mighty of strength" just as easily.

'eley is the pl. constu. form: It could be rendered "gods of" just
as readily.

Once again, you err with regard to Ivrit. That's strike three
Moshe. Three obvious and blatant errors that you have
made on that front.

You speak more as one who is relatively ignorant and
pretends to have some knowledge by using a Strong's,
than as one who actually really has some knowledge.

You do verse searches comparing it's usage, yet have
failed in that you have included words that are not even
the word you claim, or are of a binyan that disallows a
certain rendering.

<snip>
Post by moshe
Terry Cross is now pointing out that *context" affects
word meaning?
Strange, because every time we tell Terry Cross to
look at context, she refuses to.
For example,
when I pointed out yesterday that in Psalm 82
the Hebrew words "Elyon" and "elohim"
"are just relative degrees of "judge""
And again, you were mistaken.

`elyon is : ayin lamed ... and is related to height.
'elohim is : alef lamen ... and is related to strength.

<snip>
Post by moshe
So my definition of "Elyon" and "elohim" as differing degrees
of judges was *completely* correct within the context shown
in Psalm 82.
Bullshit!!!

They are not even of the same etymology.

Do we need another yish`eke / yeshu`ah debacle to
further embarass you?

<snip of bullshit that attempts to have an
appearance of knowledge>
Post by moshe
Terry Cross isn;t looking for truth.
Nor is Moshe. In fact, Moshe seems to be more
interested in obscuring truth and then attempting
to claim the "glass darkly" defense to obscure
even obvious and easy truth.
Post by moshe
Terry Cross is just an anti-Semite who is looking for
excuses to condemn Jews and spread her Nazi
propaganda.
Moshe also has spoken words of anti-semitism unto
another. Moshe also condemns the law, and spreads
his Nazi propaganda of a form of "Positive Christianity".

For not the hearers of the law are just before
God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
Terry Cross
2013-03-07 00:42:53 UTC
Quoted from:https://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/465fcf2abbae6ccb?dm...
<snip>
That true of man generally, but this Psalm refers ...
<snip>
... so when God says of them, "ye are gods", I think it
refers to them being angels, angels who are "children
of the most High" (angels also being called the "SONS
of God" - Gen. 6:4 & Job 38:7)
Here Linda openly promotes her fallen angel theory
and yet Moshe remains silent unto her.
So when Jesus said it, he was refering to them as
fallen angels LMAO!!
And, Linda may still be selling her book for "gain"
which promotes this 'heresy'.
Are you serious? She wrote a book on that?
--
Peter
====================
Linda Lee's theory is a variation of
some beliefs that surround Genesis 6:2.
I disagree with Linda Lee's belief regarding that,
but Linda Lee's belief does not have any direct impact
on her salvation or the salvation of anyone else.
It is a "side issue".
You never did argue with me about that issue, even when we were at
odds years ago.
========================
"even when we were at odds years ago"
Do not believe it, folks.
Linda Lee and I never dated.
My ego prevents me from dating people who are prettier than I am.
========================
I wonder though what do you think about Christ/God saying to the
Israelites, "Ye are gods", when God said there were no other gods
besides Himself (Isa. 45:5, 6, & 21), and God also said that the
'other gods' weren't really gods at all, but were actually devils
(Deut. 32:17)?
=========================
This is just the way I see it.
Not written in stone.
And not written with your finger? Lol!
If you look up every instance in which that Hebrew word and related
Hebrew words occur in the Bible,
context determines definition.
Psalm 82:6http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=82&v=6&t=NKJV#conc/6
 "gods" = "elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
and "Most High" = "elyon"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5945...
The Hebrew words are just relative degrees of "judge".
So you say
אלהים 'elohiym means JUDGES???
Moshe, you are so full of it.
TCross
=================
"Elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
"Elohim" can mean "judges" as an idiom.
Just as "Elohohim" can mean "God" as an idiom.
In the most literal sense it means "powerful".
Then it takes on more specific meanings based on context.
You are talking about Hebrew. The existing Gospel is in Greek. John
was probably written in Greek, not Hebrew. And John 10:34 reads:

10:34 ἀπεκρίθη αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς οὐκ ἔστιν γεγραμμένον ἐν τῷ νόμῳ ὑμῶν
ὅτι ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί ἐστε

θεοί is the plural of Theos, #G2316. It has one meaning only, and
that meaning is NOT "judge."

Psalm 82:6 uses the same word:
81:6 ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=KJV&x=69&y=2&b=Psa&c=82&v=1#conc/6

Theos. Gods, not judges. So either the ancient rabbis who translated
the LXX were wrong,

-- or Moshe is wrong. Who do we vote for, folks? No pushing, please.

TCross
moshe
2013-03-07 00:54:49 UTC
Quoted from:https://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/465fcf2abbae6ccb?dm...
<snip>
That true of man generally, but this Psalm refers ...
<snip>
... so when God says of them, "ye are gods", I think it
refers to them being angels, angels who are "children
of the most High" (angels also being called the "SONS
of God" - Gen. 6:4 & Job 38:7)
Here Linda openly promotes her fallen angel theory
and yet Moshe remains silent unto her.
So when Jesus said it, he was refering to them as
fallen angels LMAO!!
And, Linda may still be selling her book for "gain"
which promotes this 'heresy'.
Are you serious? She wrote a book on that?
--
Peter
====================
Linda Lee's theory is a variation of
some beliefs that surround Genesis 6:2.
I disagree with Linda Lee's belief regarding that,
but Linda Lee's belief does not have any direct impact
on her salvation or the salvation of anyone else.
It is a "side issue".
You never did argue with me about that issue, even when we were at
odds years ago.
========================
"even when we were at odds years ago"
Do not believe it, folks.
Linda Lee and I never dated.
My ego prevents me from dating people who are prettier than I am.
========================
I wonder though what do you think about Christ/God saying to the
Israelites, "Ye are gods", when God said there were no other gods
besides Himself (Isa. 45:5, 6, & 21), and God also said that the
'other gods' weren't really gods at all, but were actually devils
(Deut. 32:17)?
=========================
This is just the way I see it.
Not written in stone.
And not written with your finger? Lol!
If you look up every instance in which that Hebrew word and related
Hebrew words occur in the Bible,
context determines definition.
Psalm 82:6http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=82&v=6&t=NKJV#conc/6
 "gods" = "elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
and "Most High" = "elyon"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5945...
The Hebrew words are just relative degrees of "judge".
So you say
אלהים 'elohiym means JUDGES???
Moshe, you are so full of it.
TCross
=================
"Elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
"Elohim" can mean "judges" as an idiom.
Just as "Elohohim" can mean "God" as an idiom.
In the most literal sense it means "powerful".
Then it takes on more specific meanings based on context.
You are talking about Hebrew.  The existing Gospel is in Greek.  John
10:34  ἀπεκρίθη αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς οὐκ ἔστιν γεγραμμένον ἐν τῷ νόμῳ ὑμῶν
ὅτι ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί ἐστε
θεοί is the plural of Theos, #G2316.  It has one meaning only, and
that meaning is NOT "judge."
81:6 ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=KJV&x=69&y=2&b=Psa&c=82&v=...
Theos.  Gods, not judges.  So either the ancient rabbis who translated
the LXX were wrong,
-- or Moshe is wrong.  Who do we vote for, folks?  No pushing, please.
TCross-
====================

Terry Cross claims that Jesus spoke Greek,
because Terry Cross claims that Jesus was a Greek Gentile,
not a Jew.

And now Terry Cross claims that the Greek translation of the Old
Testament is more reliable than the original Hebrew Old Testament.

So no need to look at the original Hebrew of Psalm 82 that Jesus was
quoting?
So no need to look at the context of "judge...judge... judge" found
within Psalm 82?

Terry Cross is an endless supply of Nazi propaganda.

Why does Terry Cross care about the matter?
She really HATES Jews that much.
That is her sole motive.

- moshe
Terry Cross
2013-03-07 01:12:43 UTC
Quoted from:https://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/465fcf2abbae6ccb?dm...
<snip>
That true of man generally, but this Psalm refers ...
<snip>
... so when God says of them, "ye are gods", I think it
refers to them being angels, angels who are "children
of the most High" (angels also being called the "SONS
of God" - Gen. 6:4 & Job 38:7)
Here Linda openly promotes her fallen angel theory
and yet Moshe remains silent unto her.
So when Jesus said it, he was refering to them as
fallen angels LMAO!!
And, Linda may still be selling her book for "gain"
which promotes this 'heresy'.
Are you serious? She wrote a book on that?
--
Peter
====================
Linda Lee's theory is a variation of
some beliefs that surround Genesis 6:2.
I disagree with Linda Lee's belief regarding that,
but Linda Lee's belief does not have any direct impact
on her salvation or the salvation of anyone else.
It is a "side issue".
You never did argue with me about that issue, even when we were at
odds years ago.
========================
"even when we were at odds years ago"
Do not believe it, folks.
Linda Lee and I never dated.
My ego prevents me from dating people who are prettier than I am.
========================
I wonder though what do you think about Christ/God saying to the
Israelites, "Ye are gods", when God said there were no other gods
besides Himself (Isa. 45:5, 6, & 21), and God also said that the
'other gods' weren't really gods at all, but were actually devils
(Deut. 32:17)?
=========================
This is just the way I see it.
Not written in stone.
And not written with your finger? Lol!
If you look up every instance in which that Hebrew word and related
Hebrew words occur in the Bible,
context determines definition.
Psalm 82:6http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=82&v=6&t=NKJV#conc/6
 "gods" = "elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
and "Most High" = "elyon"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5945...
The Hebrew words are just relative degrees of "judge".
So you say
אלהים 'elohiym means JUDGES???
Moshe, you are so full of it.
TCross
=================
"Elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
"Elohim" can mean "judges" as an idiom.
Just as "Elohohim" can mean "God" as an idiom.
In the most literal sense it means "powerful".
Then it takes on more specific meanings based on context.
You are talking about Hebrew.  The existing Gospel is in Greek.  John
10:34  ἀπεκρίθη αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς οὐκ ἔστιν γεγραμμένον ἐν τῷ νόμῳ ὑμῶν
ὅτι ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί ἐστε
θεοί is the plural of Theos, #G2316.  It has one meaning only, and
that meaning is NOT "judge."
81:6 ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=KJV&x=69&y=2&b=Psa&c=82&v=...
Theos.  Gods, not judges.  So either the ancient rabbis who translated
the LXX were wrong,
-- or Moshe is wrong.  Who do we vote for, folks?  No pushing, please.
TCross-
====================
Terry Cross claims that Jesus spoke Greek,
because Terry Cross claims that Jesus was a Greek Gentile,
not a Jew.
And now Terry Cross claims that the Greek translation of the Old
Testament is more reliable than the original Hebrew Old Testament.
No, I claim the translation of the Hebrew to Greek by the ancient
rabbis is more accurate than the translation from Hebrew to English by
the modern Moshe.
So no need to look at the original Hebrew of Psalm 82 that Jesus was
quoting?
So no need to look at the context of "judge...judge... judge" found
within Psalm 82?
Go look. Please yourself. But do not pretend your guess about the
original meaning is better than the ancient rabbis.

TCross
Linda Lee
2013-03-07 08:29:23 UTC
Post by Terry Cross
Quoted from:https://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/465fcf2abbae6ccb?dm...
<snip>
That true of man generally, but this Psalm refers ...
<snip>
... so when God says of them, "ye are gods", I think it
refers to them being angels, angels who are "children
of the most High" (angels also being called the "SONS
of God" - Gen. 6:4 & Job 38:7)
Here Linda openly promotes her fallen angel theory
and yet Moshe remains silent unto her.
So when Jesus said it, he was refering to them as
fallen angels LMAO!!
And, Linda may still be selling her book for "gain"
which promotes this 'heresy'.
Are you serious? She wrote a book on that?
--
Peter
====================
Linda Lee's theory is a variation of
some beliefs that surround Genesis 6:2.
I disagree with Linda Lee's belief regarding that,
but Linda Lee's belief does not have any direct impact
on her salvation or the salvation of anyone else.
It is a "side issue".
You never did argue with me about that issue, even when we were at
odds years ago.
========================
"even when we were at odds years ago"
Do not believe it, folks.
Linda Lee and I never dated.
My ego prevents me from dating people who are prettier than I am.
========================
I wonder though what do you think about Christ/God saying to the
Israelites, "Ye are gods", when God said there were no other gods
besides Himself (Isa. 45:5, 6, & 21), and God also said that the
'other gods' weren't really gods at all, but were actually devils
(Deut. 32:17)?
=========================
This is just the way I see it.
Not written in stone.
And not written with your finger? Lol!
If you look up every instance in which that Hebrew word and related
Hebrew words occur in the Bible,
context determines definition.
Psalm 82:6http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=82&v=6&t=NKJV#conc/6
 "gods" = "elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
and "Most High" = "elyon"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5945...
The Hebrew words are just relative degrees of "judge".
So you say
אלהים 'elohiym means JUDGES???
Moshe, you are so full of it.
TCross
=================
"Elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
"Elohim" can mean "judges" as an idiom.
Just as "Elohohim" can mean "God" as an idiom.
In the most literal sense it means "powerful".
Then it takes on more specific meanings based on context.
You are talking about Hebrew.  The existing Gospel is in Greek.  John
10:34  ἀπεκρίθη αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς οὐκ ἔστιν γεγραμμένον ἐν τῷ νόμῳ ὑμῶν
ὅτι ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί ἐστε
θεοί is the plural of Theos, #G2316.  It has one meaning only, and
that meaning is NOT "judge."
81:6 ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=KJV&x=69&y=2&b=Psa&c=82&v=...
Theos.  Gods, not judges.  So either the ancient rabbis who translated
the LXX were wrong,
-- or Moshe is wrong.  Who do we vote for, folks?  No pushing, please.
TCross-
====================
Terry Cross claims that Jesus spoke Greek,
because Terry Cross claims that Jesus was a Greek Gentile,
not a Jew.
And now Terry Cross claims that the Greek translation of the Old
Testament is more reliable than the original Hebrew Old Testament.
No, I claim the translation of the Hebrew to Greek by the ancient
rabbis is more accurate than the translation from Hebrew to English by
the modern Moshe.
So no need to look at the original Hebrew of Psalm 82 that Jesus was
quoting?
So no need to look at the context of "judge...judge... judge" found
within Psalm 82?
Go look.  Please yourself.  But do not pretend your guess about the
original meaning is better than the ancient rabbis.
TCross
You give such credence to the "ancient rabbis" in this post. What's
up with that anomaly? Convenience?

Anyway, I've already given my opinion, which is not in this thread;
although the KJV Bible does so in three verses, many Bible
translations do not translate elohiym as judge(s), rather they
translate elohiym as God in those same three verses, and I think God
is the accurate translation, as even the Judge in Psalm 82 is God.

In the KJV Bible, elohiym is translated as 'judge' or 'judges' in only
three verses (I Sam. 2:25, Exo. 21:6, 22:8), and bibles other than
the KJV Bible (LITV, YLT, JPS, ASV, and Brenton's Septuagint
translation) translate elohiym in these cases as 'God', and not as
judge(s).
moshe
2013-03-07 12:19:05 UTC
Post by Terry Cross
Quoted from:https://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/465fcf2abbae6ccb?dm...
<snip>
That true of man generally, but this Psalm refers ...
<snip>
... so when God says of them, "ye are gods", I think it
refers to them being angels, angels who are "children
of the most High" (angels also being called the "SONS
of God" - Gen. 6:4 & Job 38:7)
Here Linda openly promotes her fallen angel theory
and yet Moshe remains silent unto her.
So when Jesus said it, he was refering to them as
fallen angels LMAO!!
And, Linda may still be selling her book for "gain"
which promotes this 'heresy'.
Are you serious? She wrote a book on that?
--
Peter
====================
Linda Lee's theory is a variation of
some beliefs that surround Genesis 6:2.
I disagree with Linda Lee's belief regarding that,
but Linda Lee's belief does not have any direct impact
on her salvation or the salvation of anyone else.
It is a "side issue".
You never did argue with me about that issue, even when we were at
odds years ago.
========================
"even when we were at odds years ago"
Do not believe it, folks.
Linda Lee and I never dated.
My ego prevents me from dating people who are prettier than I am.
========================
I wonder though what do you think about Christ/God saying to the
Israelites, "Ye are gods", when God said there were no other gods
besides Himself (Isa. 45:5, 6, & 21), and God also said that the
'other gods' weren't really gods at all, but were actually devils
(Deut. 32:17)?
=========================
This is just the way I see it.
Not written in stone.
And not written with your finger? Lol!
If you look up every instance in which that Hebrew word and related
Hebrew words occur in the Bible,
context determines definition.
Psalm 82:6http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=82&v=6&t=NKJV#conc/6
 "gods" = "elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
and "Most High" = "elyon"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5945...
The Hebrew words are just relative degrees of "judge".
So you say
אלהים 'elohiym means JUDGES???
Moshe, you are so full of it.
TCross
=================
"Elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
"Elohim" can mean "judges" as an idiom.
Just as "Elohohim" can mean "God" as an idiom.
In the most literal sense it means "powerful".
Then it takes on more specific meanings based on context.
You are talking about Hebrew.  The existing Gospel is in Greek.  John
10:34  ἀπεκρίθη αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς οὐκ ἔστιν γεγραμμένον ἐν τῷ νόμῳ ὑμῶν
ὅτι ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί ἐστε
θεοί is the plural of Theos, #G2316.  It has one meaning only, and
that meaning is NOT "judge."
81:6 ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=KJV&x=69&y=2&b=Psa&c=82&v=...
Theos.  Gods, not judges.  So either the ancient rabbis who translated
the LXX were wrong,
-- or Moshe is wrong.  Who do we vote for, folks?  No pushing, please.
TCross-
====================
Terry Cross claims that Jesus spoke Greek,
because Terry Cross claims that Jesus was a Greek Gentile,
not a Jew.
And now Terry Cross claims that the Greek translation of the Old
Testament is more reliable than the original Hebrew Old Testament.
No, I claim the translation of the Hebrew to Greek by the ancient
rabbis is more accurate than the translation from Hebrew to English by
the modern Moshe.
So no need to look at the original Hebrew of Psalm 82 that Jesus was
quoting?
So no need to look at the context of "judge...judge... judge" found
within Psalm 82?
Go look.  Please yourself.  But do not pretend your guess about the
original meaning is better than the ancient rabbis.
TCross
You give such credence to the "ancient rabbis" in this post.  What's
up with that anomaly?  Convenience?
Anyway, I've already given my opinion, which is not in this thread;
although the KJV Bible does so in three verses, many Bible
translations do not translate elohiym as judge(s), rather they
translate elohiym as God in those same three verses, and I think God
is the accurate translation, as even the Judge in Psalm 82 is God.
In the KJV Bible, elohiym is translated as 'judge' or 'judges' in only
three verses  (I Sam. 2:25, Exo. 21:6, 22:8), and bibles other than
the KJV Bible (LITV, YLT, JPS, ASV, and Brenton's Septuagint
translation) translate elohiym in these cases as 'God', and not as
judge(s).- Hide quoted text -
===============

The basic meaning of "el" is power.
"elohim" i s"powers".

When used to refer to people of legal power,
it would mean "authority".

When used to refer to people who have legal power to decide your fate,
it would mean "judge".

When used to refer to the ultimate Heavenly Power and Authority and
Judge,
it would mean "God".

In Psalm 82, verses 1 and 2 and 8 use the verb "shafat"
which means "to judge",
and the other verses detail how man unfarly judges.

So there is no doubt that the main theme of Psalm 82
is God's good judging versus mans' bad judging.

So, in that context, "elohim" refers to authorities who judge,
but whether "elohim" is actually translated as "judges"
in Psalm 82is a matter of personal preference.
Even if a person does not translate "elohim" as "judges"
in Psalm 82, the context still shows that the "elohim"
are being bad judges.

- moshe
Linda Lee
2013-03-07 09:20:11 UTC
Post by Terry Cross
Quoted from:https://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/465fcf2abbae6ccb?dm...
<snip>
That true of man generally, but this Psalm refers ...
<snip>
... so when God says of them, "ye are gods", I think it
refers to them being angels, angels who are "children
of the most High" (angels also being called the "SONS
of God" - Gen. 6:4 & Job 38:7)
Here Linda openly promotes her fallen angel theory
and yet Moshe remains silent unto her.
So when Jesus said it, he was refering to them as
fallen angels LMAO!!
And, Linda may still be selling her book for "gain"
which promotes this 'heresy'.
Are you serious? She wrote a book on that?
--
Peter
====================
Linda Lee's theory is a variation of
some beliefs that surround Genesis 6:2.
I disagree with Linda Lee's belief regarding that,
but Linda Lee's belief does not have any direct impact
on her salvation or the salvation of anyone else.
It is a "side issue".
You never did argue with me about that issue, even when we were at
odds years ago.
========================
"even when we were at odds years ago"
Do not believe it, folks.
Linda Lee and I never dated.
My ego prevents me from dating people who are prettier than I am.
========================
I wonder though what do you think about Christ/God saying to the
Israelites, "Ye are gods", when God said there were no other gods
besides Himself (Isa. 45:5, 6, & 21), and God also said that the
'other gods' weren't really gods at all, but were actually devils
(Deut. 32:17)?
=========================
This is just the way I see it.
Not written in stone.
And not written with your finger? Lol!
If you look up every instance in which that Hebrew word and related
Hebrew words occur in the Bible,
context determines definition.
Psalm 82:6http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=82&v=6&t=NKJV#conc/6
 "gods" = "elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
and "Most High" = "elyon"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5945...
The Hebrew words are just relative degrees of "judge".
So you say
אלהים 'elohiym means JUDGES???
Moshe, you are so full of it.
TCross
=================
"Elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
"Elohim" can mean "judges" as an idiom.
Just as "Elohohim" can mean "God" as an idiom.
In the most literal sense it means "powerful".
Then it takes on more specific meanings based on context.
You are talking about Hebrew.  The existing Gospel is in Greek.  John
10:34  ἀπεκρίθη αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς οὐκ ἔστιν γεγραμμένον ἐν τῷ νόμῳ ὑμῶν
ὅτι ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί ἐστε
θεοί is the plural of Theos, #G2316.  It has one meaning only, and
that meaning is NOT "judge."
81:6 ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=KJV&x=69&y=2&b=Psa&c=82&v=...
Theos.  Gods, not judges.  So either the ancient rabbis who translated
the LXX were wrong,
-- or Moshe is wrong.  Who do we vote for, folks?  No pushing, please.
TCross-
====================
Terry Cross claims that Jesus spoke Greek,
because Terry Cross claims that Jesus was a Greek Gentile,
not a Jew.
And now Terry Cross claims that the Greek translation of the Old
Testament is more reliable than the original Hebrew Old Testament.
No, I claim the translation of the Hebrew to Greek by the ancient
rabbis is more accurate than the translation from Hebrew to English by
the modern Moshe.
So no need to look at the original Hebrew of Psalm 82 that Jesus was
quoting?
So no need to look at the context of "judge...judge... judge" found
within Psalm 82?
Go look.  Please yourself.  But do not pretend your guess about the
original meaning is better than the ancient rabbis.
TCross
Why you're even talking about this issue is a mystery since you claim
God (YHWH) was merely a product of Moses' evil imagination.
moshe
2013-03-07 11:45:04 UTC
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Terry Cross
Quoted from:https://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/465fcf2abbae6ccb?dm...
<snip>
That true of man generally, but this Psalm refers ...
<snip>
... so when God says of them, "ye are gods", I think it
refers to them being angels, angels who are "children
of the most High" (angels also being called the "SONS
of God" - Gen. 6:4 & Job 38:7)
Here Linda openly promotes her fallen angel theory
and yet Moshe remains silent unto her.
So when Jesus said it, he was refering to them as
fallen angels LMAO!!
And, Linda may still be selling her book for "gain"
which promotes this 'heresy'.
Are you serious? She wrote a book on that?
--
Peter
====================
Linda Lee's theory is a variation of
some beliefs that surround Genesis 6:2.
I disagree with Linda Lee's belief regarding that,
but Linda Lee's belief does not have any direct impact
on her salvation or the salvation of anyone else.
It is a "side issue".
You never did argue with me about that issue, even when we were at
odds years ago.
========================
"even when we were at odds years ago"
Do not believe it, folks.
Linda Lee and I never dated.
My ego prevents me from dating people who are prettier than I am.
========================
I wonder though what do you think about Christ/God saying to the
Israelites, "Ye are gods", when God said there were no other gods
besides Himself (Isa. 45:5, 6, & 21), and God also said that the
'other gods' weren't really gods at all, but were actually devils
(Deut. 32:17)?
=========================
This is just the way I see it.
Not written in stone.
And not written with your finger? Lol!
If you look up every instance in which that Hebrew word and related
Hebrew words occur in the Bible,
context determines definition.
Psalm 82:6http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=82&v=6&t=NKJV#conc/6
 "gods" = "elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
and "Most High" = "elyon"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5945...
The Hebrew words are just relative degrees of "judge".
So you say
אלהים 'elohiym means JUDGES???
Moshe, you are so full of it.
TCross
=================
"Elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
"Elohim" can mean "judges" as an idiom.
Just as "Elohohim" can mean "God" as an idiom.
In the most literal sense it means "powerful".
Then it takes on more specific meanings based on context.
You are talking about Hebrew.  The existing Gospel is in Greek.  John
10:34  ἀπεκρίθη αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς οὐκ ἔστιν γεγραμμένον ἐν τῷ νόμῳ ὑμῶν
ὅτι ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί ἐστε
θεοί is the plural of Theos, #G2316.  It has one meaning only, and
that meaning is NOT "judge."
81:6 ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=KJV&x=69&y=2&b=Psa&c=82&v=...
Theos.  Gods, not judges.  So either the ancient rabbis who translated
the LXX were wrong,
-- or Moshe is wrong.  Who do we vote for, folks?  No pushing, please.
TCross-
====================
Terry Cross claims that Jesus spoke Greek,
because Terry Cross claims that Jesus was a Greek Gentile,
not a Jew.
And now Terry Cross claims that the Greek translation of the Old
Testament is more reliable than the original Hebrew Old Testament.
No, I claim the translation of the Hebrew to Greek by the ancient
rabbis is more accurate than the translation from Hebrew to English by
the modern Moshe.
So no need to look at the original Hebrew of Psalm 82 that Jesus was
quoting?
So no need to look at the context of "judge...judge... judge" found
within Psalm 82?
Go look.  Please yourself.  But do not pretend your guess about the
original meaning is better than the ancient rabbis.
TCross
Why you're even talking about this issue is a mystery since you claim
God (YHWH) was merely a product of Moses' evil imagination.-
=================

Terry Cross always has the same motive:
Say or do whatever is necessary, always defying logic, so that she can
condemn Jews.

- moshe
Terry Cross
2013-03-07 18:19:03 UTC
Post by Terry Cross
If you look up every instance in which that Hebrew word and related
Hebrew words occur in the Bible,
context determines definition.
Psalm 82:6http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=82&v=6&t=NKJV#conc/6
"gods" = "elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
and "Most High" = "elyon"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5945...
The Hebrew words are just relative degrees of "judge".
So you say
אלהים 'elohiym means JUDGES???
Moshe, you are so full of it.
TCross
=================
"Elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
"Elohim" can mean "judges" as an idiom.
Just as "Elohohim" can mean "God" as an idiom.
In the most literal sense it means "powerful".
Then it takes on more specific meanings based on context.
You are talking about Hebrew. The existing Gospel is in Greek. John
10:34 ἀπεκρίθη αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς οὐκ ἔστιν γεγραμμένον ἐν τῷ νόμῳ ὑμῶν
ὅτι ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί ἐστε
θεοί is the plural of Theos, #G2316. It has one meaning only, and
that meaning is NOT "judge."
81:6 ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=KJV&x=69&y=2&b=Psa&c=82&v=...
Theos. Gods, not judges. So either the ancient rabbis who translated
the LXX were wrong,
-- or Moshe is wrong. Who do we vote for, folks? No pushing, please.
TCross-
====================
Terry Cross claims that Jesus spoke Greek,
because Terry Cross claims that Jesus was a Greek Gentile,
not a Jew.
And now Terry Cross claims that the Greek translation of the Old
Testament is more reliable than the original Hebrew Old Testament.
No, Moshe. I claim that the the Greek translation of the Torah (LXX)
is more accurate for understanding the references Jesus used than YOUR
amateur translation of the Masoretic texts, which are admittedly
altered from the Hebrew of Jesus day.
So no need to look at the original Hebrew of Psalm 82 that Jesus was
quoting?
So no need to look at the context of "judge...judge... judge" found
within Psalm 82?
We are discussing John, not Psalms, and your translation is
ridiculous. If you change any of the mentions of "gods" in this text
to "judges," the conversation is non-sequitur.

John 10:
31 Then the Jews again took up stones, to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my
Father: for which of these works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For the good work we stone thee not,
but for blasphemy, and that thou being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I said, Ye are
gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God was given, and
the Scripture cannot be broken,
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the
world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, then though ye believe not me, yet believe the works,
that ye may know and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

TCross
moshe
2013-03-08 02:09:35 UTC
If you look up every instance in which that Hebrew word and related
Hebrew words occur in the Bible,
context determines definition.
Psalm 82:6http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=82&v=6&t=NKJV#conc/6
 "gods" = "elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
and "Most High" = "elyon"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5945...
The Hebrew words are just relative degrees of "judge".
So you say
אלהים 'elohiym means JUDGES???
Moshe, you are so full of it.
TCross
=================
"Elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
"Elohim" can mean "judges" as an idiom.
Just as "Elohohim" can mean "God" as an idiom.
In the most literal sense it means "powerful".
Then it takes on more specific meanings based on context.
You are talking about Hebrew.  The existing Gospel is in Greek.  John
10:34  ἀπεκρίθη αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς οὐκ ἔστιν γεγραμμένον ἐν τῷ νόμῳ ὑμῶν
ὅτι ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί ἐστε
θεοί is the plural of Theos, #G2316.  It has one meaning only, and
that meaning is NOT "judge."
81:6 ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=KJV&x=69&y=2&b=Psa&c=82&v=...
Theos.  Gods, not judges.  So either the ancient rabbis who translated
the LXX were wrong,
-- or Moshe is wrong.  Who do we vote for, folks?  No pushing, please.
TCross-
====================
Terry Cross claims that Jesus spoke Greek,
because Terry Cross claims that Jesus was a Greek Gentile,
not a Jew.
And now Terry Cross claims that the Greek translation of the Old
Testament is more reliable than the original Hebrew Old Testament.
No, Moshe.  I claim that the the Greek translation of the Torah (LXX)
is more accurate for understanding the references Jesus used than YOUR
amateur translation of the Masoretic texts, which are admittedly
altered from the Hebrew of Jesus day.
So no need to look at the original Hebrew of Psalm 82 that Jesus was
quoting?
So no need to look at the context of "judge...judge... judge" found
within Psalm 82?
We are discussing John, not Psalms, and your translation is
ridiculous.  If you change any of the mentions of "gods" in this text
to "judges," the conversation is non-sequitur.
31 Then the Jews again took up stones, to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my
Father: for which of these works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For the good work we stone thee not,
but for blasphemy, and that thou being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I said, Ye are
gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God was given, and
the Scripture cannot be broken,
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the
world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, then though ye believe not me, yet believe the works,
that ye may know and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
TCross
====================

Jesus's conversational language with his disciples would have been
Aramaic.

When Jesus quoted Scripture, Jesus quoted in the original Biblical
Hebrew and Aramaic (the latter books of the Old Testament contained
much Aramaic).

So when Terry Cross relies on an English translation of a Greek
translation of the Hebrew originals,
to "prove" what the originals said,
that is ridiculous.

I am in complete agreement with the ancient rabbis about what the raw
words are and what the raw meanings are,
but the nuances in the original text can lead to several different
translations which are all "correct".

The entire Psalm 82 is about *judges* who *judge*,
and other Bible verses explicitly have "elohim"
translated as "judges" because the context warrants it.

Even people who want to translate the last word of Psalm 82:1
as "gods" do so while acknowledging that the people
being referred to are not literally "gods".

So when Terry Cross said that I was "full of it"
for translating "elohim" as "judges" rather than "gods",
Terry Cross was being dishonest again.

- moshe
Terry Cross
2013-03-08 04:53:05 UTC
If you look up every instance in which that Hebrew word and related
Hebrew words occur in the Bible,
context determines definition.
Psalm 82:6http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=82&v=6&t=NKJV#conc/6
 "gods" = "elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
and "Most High" = "elyon"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5945...
The Hebrew words are just relative degrees of "judge".
So you say
אלהים 'elohiym means JUDGES???
Moshe, you are so full of it.
TCross
=================
"Elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
"Elohim" can mean "judges" as an idiom.
Just as "Elohohim" can mean "God" as an idiom.
In the most literal sense it means "powerful".
Then it takes on more specific meanings based on context.
You are talking about Hebrew.  The existing Gospel is in Greek.  John
10:34  ἀπεκρίθη αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς οὐκ ἔστιν γεγραμμένον ἐν τῷ νόμῳ ὑμῶν
ὅτι ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί ἐστε
θεοί is the plural of Theos, #G2316.  It has one meaning only, and
that meaning is NOT "judge."
81:6 ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=KJV&x=69&y=2&b=Psa&c=82&v=...
Theos.  Gods, not judges.  So either the ancient rabbis who translated
the LXX were wrong,
-- or Moshe is wrong.  Who do we vote for, folks?  No pushing, please.
TCross-
====================
Terry Cross claims that Jesus spoke Greek,
because Terry Cross claims that Jesus was a Greek Gentile,
not a Jew.
And now Terry Cross claims that the Greek translation of the Old
Testament is more reliable than the original Hebrew Old Testament.
No, Moshe.  I claim that the the Greek translation of the Torah (LXX)
is more accurate for understanding the references Jesus used than YOUR
amateur translation of the Masoretic texts, which are admittedly
altered from the Hebrew of Jesus day.
So no need to look at the original Hebrew of Psalm 82 that Jesus was
quoting?
So no need to look at the context of "judge...judge... judge" found
within Psalm 82?
We are discussing John, not Psalms, and your translation is
ridiculous.  If you change any of the mentions of "gods" in this text
to "judges," the conversation is non-sequitur.
31 Then the Jews again took up stones, to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my
Father: for which of these works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For the good work we stone thee not,
but for blasphemy, and that thou being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I said, Ye are
gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God was given, and
the Scripture cannot be broken,
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the
world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, then though ye believe not me, yet believe the works,
that ye may know and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
TCross
====================
Jesus's conversational language with his disciples would have been
Aramaic.
When Jesus quoted Scripture, Jesus quoted in the original Biblical
Hebrew and Aramaic (the latter books of the Old Testament contained
much Aramaic).
So when Terry Cross relies on an English translation of a Greek
translation of the Hebrew originals,
to "prove" what the originals said,
that is ridiculous.
I am in complete agreement with the ancient rabbis about what the raw
words are and what the raw meanings are,
but the nuances in the original text can lead to several different
translations which are all "correct".
The entire Psalm 82 is about *judges* who *judge*,
and other Bible verses explicitly have "elohim"
translated as "judges" because the context warrants it.
Even people who want to translate the last word of Psalm 82:1
as "gods" do so while acknowledging that the people
being referred to are not literally "gods".
So when Terry Cross said that I was "full of it"
for translating "elohim" as "judges" rather than "gods",
Terry Cross was being dishonest again.
Yes, Moshe, you are full of yourself.
31 Then the Jews again took up stones, to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my
Father: for which of these works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For the good work we stone thee not,
but for blasphemy, and that thou being a man, makest thyself Judge.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I said, Ye are
judges?
35 If he called them judges, unto whom the word of Judge was given, and
the Scripture cannot be broken,
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the
world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of Judge?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, then though ye believe not me, yet believe the works,
that ye may know and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
You have (not) brought a whole lot of sense to that passage. How
tragic the original authors of LXX did not have your wisdom and good
sense.

TCross
moshe
2013-03-08 06:11:28 UTC
Post by Terry Cross
If you look up every instance in which that Hebrew word and related
Hebrew words occur in the Bible,
context determines definition.
Psalm 82:6http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=82&v=6&t=NKJV#conc/6
 "gods" = "elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
and "Most High" = "elyon"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5945...
The Hebrew words are just relative degrees of "judge".
So you say
אלהים 'elohiym means JUDGES???
Moshe, you are so full of it.
TCross
=================
"Elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
"Elohim" can mean "judges" as an idiom.
Just as "Elohohim" can mean "God" as an idiom.
In the most literal sense it means "powerful".
Then it takes on more specific meanings based on context.
You are talking about Hebrew.  The existing Gospel is in Greek.  John
10:34  ἀπεκρίθη αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς οὐκ ἔστιν γεγραμμένον ἐν τῷ νόμῳ ὑμῶν
ὅτι ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί ἐστε
θεοί is the plural of Theos, #G2316.  It has one meaning only, and
that meaning is NOT "judge."
81:6 ἐγὼ εἶπα θεοί
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=KJV&x=69&y=2&b=Psa&c=82&v=...
Theos.  Gods, not judges.  So either the ancient rabbis who translated
the LXX were wrong,
-- or Moshe is wrong.  Who do we vote for, folks?  No pushing, please.
TCross-
====================
Terry Cross claims that Jesus spoke Greek,
because Terry Cross claims that Jesus was a Greek Gentile,
not a Jew.
And now Terry Cross claims that the Greek translation of the Old
Testament is more reliable than the original Hebrew Old Testament.
No, Moshe.  I claim that the the Greek translation of the Torah (LXX)
is more accurate for understanding the references Jesus used than YOUR
amateur translation of the Masoretic texts, which are admittedly
altered from the Hebrew of Jesus day.
So no need to look at the original Hebrew of Psalm 82 that Jesus was
quoting?
So no need to look at the context of "judge...judge... judge" found
within Psalm 82?
We are discussing John, not Psalms, and your translation is
ridiculous.  If you change any of the mentions of "gods" in this text
to "judges," the conversation is non-sequitur.
31 Then the Jews again took up stones, to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my
Father: for which of these works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For the good work we stone thee not,
but for blasphemy, and that thou being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I said, Ye are
gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God was given, and
the Scripture cannot be broken,
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the
world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, then though ye believe not me, yet believe the works,
that ye may know and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
TCross
====================
Jesus's conversational language with his disciples would have been
Aramaic.
When Jesus quoted Scripture, Jesus quoted in the original Biblical
Hebrew and Aramaic (the latter books of the Old Testament contained
much Aramaic).
So when Terry Cross relies on an English translation of a Greek
translation of the Hebrew originals,
to "prove" what the originals said,
that is ridiculous.
I am in complete agreement with the ancient rabbis about what the raw
words are and what the raw meanings are,
but the nuances in the original text can lead to several different
translations which are all "correct".
The entire Psalm 82 is about *judges* who *judge*,
and other Bible verses explicitly have "elohim"
translated as "judges" because the context warrants it.
Even people who want to translate the last word of Psalm 82:1
as "gods" do so while acknowledging that the people
being referred to are not literally "gods".
So when Terry Cross said that I was "full of it"
for translating "elohim" as "judges" rather than "gods",
Terry Cross was being dishonest again.
Yes, Moshe, you are full of yourself.
31 Then the Jews again took up stones, to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my
Father: for which of these works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For the good work we stone thee not,
but for blasphemy, and that thou being a man, makest thyself Judge.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I said, Ye are
judges?
35 If he called them judges, unto whom the word of Judge was given, and
the Scripture cannot be broken,
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the
world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of Judge?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, then though ye believe not me, yet believe the works,
that ye may know and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
You have (not) brought a whole lot of sense to that passage.  How
tragic the original authors of LXX did not have your wisdom and good
sense.
TCross-
=========================

EXAMPLE #1:


See Genesis 23:6.
"Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty prince among us: in the choice
of
our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his
sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=23&v=6&t=KJV#6


In the Hebrew that is:
"Hear us, my lord: thou art an "elohim" prince among us: in the
choice
of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee
his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead."


EXAMPLE #2:


See Genesis 30:8.
"And Rachel said, With great wrestlings have I wrestled with my
sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=30&t=KJV#8


In the Hebrew that is:
"And Rachel said, With "elohim" wrestlings have I wrestled with my
sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali.


EXAMPLE #3:


See Jonah 3:3.
"So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the
LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days'
journey."


In the Hebrew that is:
"So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the
LORD. Now Nineveh was an "elohim" great city of three days' journey."


EXAMPLE #4:


See Exodus 9:28.
"Intreat the LORD for it is enough that there be no more mighty
thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no
longer."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=9&v=28&t=KJV#28


In the Hebrew that is:
"Intreat the LORD for it is enough that there be no more "elohim"
thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no
longer."


EXAMPLE #5:


See Exodus 22:8-9 which has 3 instances of "elohim" as "judges":
"If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be
brought unto the judges, [to see] whether he have put his hand unto
his neighbour's goods.
For all manner of trespass, [whether it be] for ox, for ass, for
sheep, for raiment, [or] for any manner of lost thing, which
[another]
challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before
the
judges; [and] whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto
his neighbour."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=22&v=8&t=KJV#8


In the Hebrew that is:
"If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be
brought unto the "elohim", [to see] whether he have put his hand unto
his neighbour's goods.
For all manner of trespass, [whether it be] for ox, for ass, for
sheep, for raiment, [or] for any manner of lost thing, which
[another]
challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before
the
"elohim"; [and] whom the "elohoim" shall condemn, he shall pay double
unto his neighbour."


EXAMPLE #6:


See I Samuel 2:25:
"If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a
man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding
they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD
would slay them."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Sa&c=2&v=25&t=KJV#25


In the Hebrew that is:
"If one man sin against another, the "elohim" shall judge him: but if
a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him?
Notwithstanding
they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD
would slay them."


EXAMPLE #7:


See I Samuel 14:15:
"And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the
people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the
earth quaked: so it was a very great trembling."


In the Hebrew that is:


"And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the
people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the
earth quaked: so it was a "elohim" trembling."


- moshe
Terry Cross
2013-03-08 19:02:45 UTC
Post by Terry Cross
Post by moshe
So when Terry Cross said that I was "full of it"
for translating "elohim" as "judges" rather than "gods",
Terry Cross was being dishonest again.
Yes, Moshe, you are full of yourself.
Post by moshe
31 Then the Jews again took up stones, to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my
Father: for which of these works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For the good work we stone thee not,
but for blasphemy, and that thou being a man, makest thyself Judge.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I said, Ye are
judges?
35 If he called them judges, unto whom the word of Judge was given, and
the Scripture cannot be broken,
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the
world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of Judge?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, then though ye believe not me, yet believe the works,
that ye may know and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
You have (not) brought a whole lot of sense to that passage.  How
tragic the original authors of LXX did not have your wisdom and good
sense.
TCross-
=========================
See Genesis 23:6.
"Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty prince among us: in the choice of
our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his
sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=23&v=6&t=KJV#6
"Hear us, my lord: thou art an "elohim" prince among us: in the choice
of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee
his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead."
See Genesis 30:8.
"And Rachel said, With great wrestlings have I wrestled with my
sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=30&t=KJV#8
"And Rachel said, With "elohim" wrestlings have I wrestled with my
sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali.
See Jonah 3:3.
"So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the
LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days'
journey."
"So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the
LORD. Now Nineveh was an "elohim" great city of three days' journey."
See Exodus 9:28.
"Intreat the LORD for it is enough that there be no more mighty
thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no
longer."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=9&v=28&t=KJV#28
"Intreat the LORD for it is enough that there be no more "elohim"
thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no
longer."
"If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be
brought unto the judges, [to see] whether he have put his hand unto
his neighbour's goods.
For all manner of trespass, [whether it be] for ox, for ass, for
sheep, for raiment, [or] for any manner of lost thing, which
[another]
challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the
judges; [and] whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto
his neighbour."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=22&v=8&t=KJV#8
"If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be
brought unto the "elohim", [to see] whether he have put his hand unto
his neighbour's goods.
For all manner of trespass, [whether it be] for ox, for ass, for
sheep, for raiment, [or] for any manner of lost thing, which
[another]
challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the
"elohim"; [and] whom the "elohoim" shall condemn, he shall pay double
unto his neighbour."
"If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a
man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding
they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD
would slay them."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Sa&c=2&v=25&t=KJV#25
"If one man sin against another, the "elohim" shall judge him: but if
a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him?
Notwithstanding
they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD
would slay them."
"And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the
people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the
earth quaked: so it was a very great trembling."
"And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the
people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the
earth quaked: so it was a "elohim" trembling."
- moshe
You have lost us all in a digression, Moshe. Get to the point. How
would the Psalms verse saying "Ye are judges" explain Jesus statement
that he was a Son of God?

TCross
moshe
2013-03-08 19:42:02 UTC
Post by Terry Cross
Post by moshe
So when Terry Cross said that I was "full of it"
for translating "elohim" as "judges" rather than "gods",
Terry Cross was being dishonest again.
Yes, Moshe, you are full of yourself.
Post by moshe
31 Then the Jews again took up stones, to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my
Father: for which of these works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For the good work we stone thee not,
but for blasphemy, and that thou being a man, makest thyself Judge.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I said, Ye are
judges?
35 If he called them judges, unto whom the word of Judge was given, and
the Scripture cannot be broken,
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the
world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of Judge?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, then though ye believe not me, yet believe the works,
that ye may know and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
You have (not) brought a whole lot of sense to that passage.  How
tragic the original authors of LXX did not have your wisdom and good
sense.
TCross-
=========================
See Genesis 23:6.
"Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty prince among us: in the choice of
our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his
sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=23&v=6&t=KJV#6
"Hear us, my lord: thou art an "elohim" prince among us: in the choice
of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee
his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead."
See Genesis 30:8.
"And Rachel said, With great wrestlings have I wrestled with my
sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=30&t=KJV#8
"And Rachel said, With "elohim" wrestlings have I wrestled with my
sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali.
See Jonah 3:3.
"So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the
LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days'
journey."
"So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the
LORD. Now Nineveh was an "elohim" great city of three days' journey."
See Exodus 9:28.
"Intreat the LORD for it is enough that there be no more mighty
thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no
longer."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=9&v=28&t=KJV#28
"Intreat the LORD for it is enough that there be no more "elohim"
thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no
longer."
"If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be
brought unto the judges, [to see] whether he have put his hand unto
his neighbour's goods.
For all manner of trespass, [whether it be] for ox, for ass, for
sheep, for raiment, [or] for any manner of lost thing, which
[another]
challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the
judges; [and] whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto
his neighbour."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=22&v=8&t=KJV#8
"If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be
brought unto the "elohim", [to see] whether he have put his hand unto
his neighbour's goods.
For all manner of trespass, [whether it be] for ox, for ass, for
sheep, for raiment, [or] for any manner of lost thing, which
[another]
challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the
"elohim"; [and] whom the "elohoim" shall condemn, he shall pay double
unto his neighbour."
"If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a
man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding
they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD
would slay them."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Sa&c=2&v=25&t=KJV#25
"If one man sin against another, the "elohim" shall judge him: but if
a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him?
Notwithstanding
they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD
would slay them."
"And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the
people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the
earth quaked: so it was a very great trembling."
"And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the
people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the
earth quaked: so it was a "elohim" trembling."
- moshe
You have lost us all in a digression, Moshe.  Get to the point.  How
would the Psalms verse saying "Ye are judges" explain Jesus statement
that he was a Son of God?
TCross
======================

Jesus was speaking in Hebrew.

Jesus was using a double-entendre in Hebrew that frusrated the
Pharisees' attempt to condemn him.

But Terry Cross will use whatever manufactured "evidence" she can
create to condemn Jews.

Because Terry Cross hates Jews that much.

Why is Terry Cross making such a big deal about that passage?
Terry Cross is an anti-Semite who rejects both Old Testament and New
Testament.
Terry Cross is just trying to manufacture a bogus accusation against
Jews, Israel. God, the Bible, Christians.

- moshe
Up from the Abyss
2013-03-09 20:56:47 UTC
<snip>
Post by Terry Cross
You have lost us all in a digression, Moshe. Get to the
point. How would the Psalms verse saying "Ye are
judges" explain Jesus statement that he was a Son of God?
It doesn't. And as I have briefly shown in another post,
the LXX disagrees with him at almost every point.
moshe
2013-03-10 20:03:39 UTC
Post by Terry Cross
Post by moshe
So when Terry Cross said that I was "full of it"
for translating "elohim" as "judges" rather than "gods",
Terry Cross was being dishonest again.
Yes, Moshe, you are full of yourself.
Post by moshe
31 Then the Jews again took up stones, to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my
Father: for which of these works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For the good work we stone thee not,
but for blasphemy, and that thou being a man, makest thyself Judge.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I said, Ye are
judges?
35 If he called them judges, unto whom the word of Judge was given, and
the Scripture cannot be broken,
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the
world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of Judge?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, then though ye believe not me, yet believe the works,
that ye may know and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
You have (not) brought a whole lot of sense to that passage.  How
tragic the original authors of LXX did not have your wisdom and good
sense.
TCross-
=========================
See Genesis 23:6.
"Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty prince among us: in the choice of
our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his
sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=23&v=6&t=KJV#6
"Hear us, my lord: thou art an "elohim" prince among us: in the choice
of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee
his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead."
See Genesis 30:8.
"And Rachel said, With great wrestlings have I wrestled with my
sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=30&t=KJV#8
"And Rachel said, With "elohim" wrestlings have I wrestled with my
sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali.
See Jonah 3:3.
"So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the
LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days'
journey."
"So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the
LORD. Now Nineveh was an "elohim" great city of three days' journey."
See Exodus 9:28.
"Intreat the LORD for it is enough that there be no more mighty
thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no
longer."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=9&v=28&t=KJV#28
"Intreat the LORD for it is enough that there be no more "elohim"
thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no
longer."
"If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be
brought unto the judges, [to see] whether he have put his hand unto
his neighbour's goods.
For all manner of trespass, [whether it be] for ox, for ass, for
sheep, for raiment, [or] for any manner of lost thing, which
[another]
challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the
judges; [and] whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto
his neighbour."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=22&v=8&t=KJV#8
"If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be
brought unto the "elohim", [to see] whether he have put his hand unto
his neighbour's goods.
For all manner of trespass, [whether it be] for ox, for ass, for
sheep, for raiment, [or] for any manner of lost thing, which
[another]
challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the
"elohim"; [and] whom the "elohoim" shall condemn, he shall pay double
unto his neighbour."
"If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a
man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding
they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD
would slay them."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Sa&c=2&v=25&t=KJV#25
"If one man sin against another, the "elohim" shall judge him: but if
a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him?
Notwithstanding
they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD
would slay them."
"And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the
people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the
earth quaked: so it was a very great trembling."
"And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the
people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the
earth quaked: so it was a "elohim" trembling."
- moshe
You have lost us all in a digression, Moshe.  Get to the point.  How
would the Psalms verse saying "Ye are judges" explain Jesus statement
that he was a Son of God?
TCross
========================

Mark wrote:

Moshe, is Up from the Abyss right about Elyon having a different
meaning from Elohim?

My answer:
In the context of Psalm 82, "Abyss" is *wrong*.

Facts that atheist "Abyss" deliberately ignores because he wants to
lead people astray from God's truth:

The "Elyon" of Psalm 82:6 refers to the "Elohim" / God of verses 1
and
8,
so the context does *not* differ between "height" and "power".
God is the ultimate "Power" *and *the ultimate "Height" in hierarchy.

And verse 6 says that "Elyon" is the Father of the "elohim".
So "Elyon" is the Highest "Elohim".

The *entire* Psalm 82 is talking about *judging*.
God the ultimate Judge denounces Earthly judges for judging unfairly.
God established judges on Earth, and throughout the Old Testament God
warned the judges to judge properly, and God denounced them when they
judged improperly.
Psalm 82 is one of those passages.
Read Psalm 82 and see for yourself.

In John 10:34 Jesus was speaking Psalm 82:6 in the original Hebrew.
The original Hebrew contained the double entendre of "elohim" having
both "God" and "judges" as meanings.
Jesus was able to use that ambiguity, that double entendre in the
Hebrew, to confound the Pharisees' objection to Jesus referring to
himself as the Son of God.
Jesus was not translating into Greek where he would have to choose a
meaning for "elohim".
Jesus was speaking in the original Hebrew so that the Hebrew double
entendre of Psalm 82:6 would remain intact.

At no time did Jesus or the Psalm writer intend for anyone to think
that there are gods other than God.

At no time did Jesus or the Psalm writer intend for anyone to think
that human beings are gods.

By using that ambiguity of "elohim", a double entendre, Jesus was
using a variation of the parables that Jesus used for speaking to all
non-disciples.
Jesus was being deliberately cryptic because Jesus was speaking to
non-
disciples in John 8:34.

When "Abyss" and Terry Cross claim that Psalm 82 is not about the
Heavenly Judge criticizing Earthly judges, they are lying.

When "Abyss" and Terry Cross claim that Psalm 82 wants you to think
that human beings are gods, they are lying.

When "Abyss" and Terry Cross claim that Jesus wants you to think that
human beings are gods, they are lying.

In John 8:34 Jesus was relying on a double entendre in Hebrew as he
spoke the Hebrew.
When anyone tries to translate that into any other language, the
double entendre is lost, so even if the traslator recognizes the
double entendre in the original Hebrew, he is in a quandary in trying
to choose what Greek or English word to choose for the translation,
because there will be no corresponding double entendre in the Greek
translation or in the English translation.

"Abyss" and Terry Cross are *lying* to you,
because they reject the Bible,
and they want *you* to reject the Bible, too.

Mark, I hope that clarifies the matter for you.
If not, send me another email.

- moshe
Up from the Abyss
2013-03-11 01:57:40 UTC
Post by moshe
Moshe, is Up from the Abyss right about Elyon
having a different meaning from Elohim?
In the context of Psalm 82, "Abyss" is *wrong*.
<snip>

I have already replied to this in one instance. In
another response, I decided we should revisit
your yish`eke / yeshu`ah debacle.

And in yet another, I included both my response
to this post, as well as the yish`eke / yeshu`ah
debacle.

Don't you just hate it when someone forces
you to respond to a post of mine that you
say you don't read anymore?

I don't care what you say Moshe. I shall leave
it to Mark and whoever else to decide for
themselves.
Up from the Abyss
2013-03-09 21:08:22 UTC
Post by Terry Cross
Yes, Moshe, you are full of yourself.
Which he has admitted unto.

<snip>
Post by Terry Cross
You have (not) brought a whole lot of sense to that passage.
How tragic the original authors of LXX did not have your
wisdom and good sense.
LMAO!!!
Genesis 23:6. ... mighty prince
Or, one could render it: nesi' elohim; prince of God among us.

As the LXX renders it: basileus para Theou : king from of God.

<snip>
See Genesis 30:8. ... With great wrestlings
In the Hebrew that is: ... With "elohim" wrestlings
naphtuley 'elohim : wrestling of God / might

Even "great ones" of struggle.

With wrestling of might I wrestled

With wrestling of God I wrestled

LXX sunantelabeto mou [moi] ho Theos kai sonanestraphen
See Jonah 3:3. ... exceeding great city
In the Hebrew that is: an "elohim" great city
haytah `ir_gedolah l-'elohim : she was city great to God

LXX: polis megale to Theo

Which can be literally rendered: a great city to God
See Exodus 9:28. ... mighty thunderings
In the Hebrew that is: ... "elohim" thunderings
qolot 'elohim

mighty thunderings / voices of God

LXX: phonas Theou : voice of God
Exodus 22:8-9 ... which has 3 instances of "elohim" as "judges": ...
In the Hebrew that is: ... the "elohim" ... the "elohim";
[and] whom the "elohoim"
'el_ha-'elohim ... ha-'elohim ... 'elohim

And in verse 11 it goes on to say:
shevu`at YHVH : oath of YHVH

LXX enopion tou Theou ... enopion tou Theou ... dia tou Theou :

In the presence [before] of God ... in the presence [before] of
God ... by [of] God.

Which is in accord with verse 11.
See I Samuel 2:25: ... the judge shall judge him
u-pilelo 'elohim ... mi yitpalel_lo

and judges [mediate] him elohim ;
God mediates for him
piel; 3rd pers. preterit

mi yitpalel_lo : who shall intercede_for him
hithpael; 3rd pers sing. fut.

LXX pros Kurion ... to Kurio
See I Samuel 14:15: ... great trembling."
In the Hebrew that is: ... "elohim" trembling."
va-tehi le-kherdat 'elohim : and she was as trembling of God

LXX: para Kuriou : from of Lord [God]

Your so-called "proofs" are weak at best. The LXX
would seem to refute you at almost every point, let
alone some of the nuance of the Hebrew langauge.
Up from the Abyss
2013-03-09 20:59:11 UTC
<snip>
Post by moshe
When Jesus quoted Scripture, Jesus quoted in the
original Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic (the latter
books of the Old Testament contained much
Aramaic).
LMAO!!!

Let's see, we have:

Daniel 2-7
Ezra 4-7

Nor, are the chapters I mention above completely Aramaic.

That ***IS*** the bulk of Aramaic in the Bible.

Not much overall.

In fact, only about 1% of the TaNaKh.
Post by moshe
So when Terry Cross relies on an English translation of a
Greek translation of the Hebrew originals, to "prove" what
the originals said, that is ridiculous.
Yet, it goes to show how it was understood at that time by
those fluent and knowledgeable in the TaNaKh.
Post by moshe
I am in complete agreement with the ancient rabbis about
what the raw words are and what the raw meanings are,
but the nuances in the original text can lead to several
different translations which are all "correct".
LMFAO!!! Yeah, like "angelic creatures" and beney
is now "angels".
Post by moshe
The entire Psalm 82 is about *judges* who *judge*,
and other Bible verses explicitly have "elohim"
translated as "judges" because the context warrants it.
Because the context warrants it. But, it is unwarranted,
which verse 7 makes clear, for it states that even though
they are called "elohim" [theoi / gods], they shall die as
men.
Post by moshe
Even people who want to translate the last word of Psalm
82:1 as "gods" do so while acknowledging that the people
being referred to are not literally "gods".
It could just as easily be rendered "mighty ones".
Post by moshe
So when Terry Cross said that I was "full of it"
for translating "elohim" as "judges" rather than "gods",
Terry Cross was being dishonest again.
Moshe, you are quoting a few verses out of over some
2,200 occurrences in which "elohim" was rendered as
"judge / judges". Of which, there are only just a few
occurrences. Of the 7 examples you gave, how many
of those were actually with regard to "judges"?

Only one had any real merit as a possibility.


God presides in the assembly of the mighty, in among
the mighty ones he judges.

The "mighty ones" are depriving others of justice and
showing partiality to the wicked. Allowing the wicked
to trample upon those in need.

I have said, you are elohim / gods / mighty ones, sons
of the Most High, but you shall die as men ...

Even if you attempt to render it as "judges", which the
context does not support, and thus why no translation
that I can think of has rendered it as such, they are
still to die. And YHVH still shaphatim / judges among
them.

In John 10, they accused him of making himself equal
to God, yet the Scripture says, they are "elohim", and
Jesus goes on to say, he is the "son" of God.

Not God himself.
Up from the Abyss
2013-03-09 20:54:20 UTC
Post by moshe
You are talking about Hebrew. The existing Gospel is
in Greek. John was probably written in Greek, not
10:34 ???????? ?????? ? ?????? ??? ?????
??????????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????
???? ????
???? is the plural of Theos, #G2316. It has one meaning
only, and that meaning is NOT "judge."
81:6 ??? ???? ????
It is what it goes on to say that is more interesting:

kai uihoi hupsistou pantes : and sons of most high
Post by moshe
Theos. Gods, not judges. So either the ancient rabbis who
translated the LXX were wrong,
-- or Moshe is wrong. Who do we vote for, folks? No
pushing, please.
<raises his hand in his best Horshack impersonation>

Ooh ooh ooooh, Mr. Kotter!
Post by moshe
And now Terry Cross claims that the Greek translation of
the Old Testament is more reliable than the original Hebrew
Old Testament.
Uhh, no!!! The gospel is in Greek. And Terry has stated
that the LXX rendering is more reliable and accurate than
your rendering. That is true. Your so-called rendering was
nothing more than BULLSHIT!!!

It was so bad, that you implied that Jesus was an ignorant
nudnik with your rendering.
Post by moshe
So no need to look at the original Hebrew of Psalm 82
that Jesus was quoting?
So no need to look at the context of "judge...judge...
judge" found within Psalm 82?
Yet, the nom. pl. sons and gen. sing. high of the LXX
alone disallow your rendering. Not too mention the
gospel account and the reason Jesus gave which also
disallows your rendering.
Post by moshe
Terry Cross is an endless supply of Nazi propaganda.
And Moshe is an endless supply of a form of "Positive
Christianity" which has attempted to remove everything
"Jewish" from the NT.
Post by moshe
Why does Terry Cross care about the matter?
She really HATES Jews that much.
That is her sole motive.
And Moshe hates everything "Jewish" so much,
that he has forsaken her, as well as his Messiah
and his God.

For not the hearers of the law are just before
God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
moshe
2013-03-10 20:01:46 UTC
Quoted from:https://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/465fcf2abbae6ccb?dm...
<snip>
That true of man generally, but this Psalm refers ...
<snip>
... so when God says of them, "ye are gods", I think it
refers to them being angels, angels who are "children
of the most High" (angels also being called the "SONS
of God" - Gen. 6:4 & Job 38:7)
Here Linda openly promotes her fallen angel theory
and yet Moshe remains silent unto her.
So when Jesus said it, he was refering to them as
fallen angels LMAO!!
And, Linda may still be selling her book for "gain"
which promotes this 'heresy'.
Are you serious? She wrote a book on that?
--
Peter
====================
Linda Lee's theory is a variation of
some beliefs that surround Genesis 6:2.
I disagree with Linda Lee's belief regarding that,
but Linda Lee's belief does not have any direct impact
on her salvation or the salvation of anyone else.
It is a "side issue".
You never did argue with me about that issue, even when we were at
odds years ago.
========================
"even when we were at odds years ago"
Do not believe it, folks.
Linda Lee and I never dated.
My ego prevents me from dating people who are prettier than I am.
========================
I wonder though what do you think about Christ/God saying to the
Israelites, "Ye are gods", when God said there were no other gods
besides Himself (Isa. 45:5, 6, & 21), and God also said that the
'other gods' weren't really gods at all, but were actually devils
(Deut. 32:17)?
=========================
This is just the way I see it.
Not written in stone.
And not written with your finger? Lol!
If you look up every instance in which that Hebrew word and related
Hebrew words occur in the Bible,
context determines definition.
Psalm 82:6http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=82&v=6&t=NKJV#conc/6
 "gods" = "elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
and "Most High" = "elyon"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5945...
The Hebrew words are just relative degrees of "judge".
So you say
אלהים 'elohiym means JUDGES???
Moshe, you are so full of it.
TCross
=================
"Elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
"Elohim" can mean "judges" as an idiom.
Just as "Elohohim" can mean "God" as an idiom.
In the most literal sense it means "powerful".
Then it takes on more specific meanings based on context.
See Genesis 23:6.
"Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty prince among us: in the choice of
our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his
sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=23&v=6&t=KJV#6
"Hear us, my lord: thou art an "elohim" prince among us: in the choice
of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee
his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead."
See Genesis 30:8.
"And Rachel said, With great wrestlings have I wrestled with my
sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=30&t=KJV#8
"And Rachel said, With "elohim" wrestlings have I wrestled with my
sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali.
See Jonah 3:3.
"So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the
LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey."
"So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the
LORD. Now Nineveh was an "elohim" great city of three days' journey."
See Exodus 9:28.
"Intreat the LORD for it is enough that there be no more mighty
thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no
longer."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=9&v=28&t=KJV#28
"Intreat the LORD for it is enough that there be no more "elohim"
thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no
longer."
"If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be
brought unto the judges, [to see] whether he have put his hand unto
his neighbour's goods.
For all manner of trespass, [whether it be] for ox, for ass, for
sheep, for raiment, [or] for any manner of lost thing, which [another]
challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the
judges; [and] whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto
his neighbour."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=22&v=8&t=KJV#8
"If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be
brought unto the "elohim", [to see] whether he have put his hand unto
his neighbour's goods.
For all manner of trespass, [whether it be] for ox, for ass, for
sheep, for raiment, [or] for any manner of lost thing, which [another]
challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the
"elohim"; [and] whom the "elohoim" shall condemn, he shall pay double
unto his neighbour."
"If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a
man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding
they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD
would slay them."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Sa&c=2&v=25&t=KJV#25
"If one man sin against another, the "elohim" shall judge him: but if
a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding
they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD
would slay them."
"And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the
people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the
earth quaked: so it was a very great trembling."
"And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the
people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the
earth quaked: so it was a "elohim" trembling."
- moshe
============================

Mark wrote:

Moshe, is Up from the Abyss right about Elyon having a different
meaning from Elohim?

My answer:
In the context of Psalm 82, "Abyss" is *wrong*.

Facts that atheist "Abyss" deliberately ignores because he wants to
lead people astray from God's truth:

The "Elyon" of Psalm 82:6 refers to the "Elohim" / God of verses 1
and
8,
so the context does *not* differ between "height" and "power".
God is the ultimate "Power" *and *the ultimate "Height" in hierarchy.

And verse 6 says that "Elyon" is the Father of the "elohim".
So "Elyon" is the Highest "Elohim".

The *entire* Psalm 82 is talking about *judging*.
God the ultimate Judge denounces Earthly judges for judging unfairly.
God established judges on Earth, and throughout the Old Testament God
warned the judges to judge properly, and God denounced them when they
judged improperly.
Psalm 82 is one of those passages.
Read Psalm 82 and see for yourself.

In John 10:34 Jesus was speaking Psalm 82:6 in the original Hebrew.
The original Hebrew contained the double entendre of "elohim" having
both "God" and "judges" as meanings.
Jesus was able to use that ambiguity, that double entendre in the
Hebrew, to confound the Pharisees' objection to Jesus referring to
himself as the Son of God.
Jesus was not translating into Greek where he would have to choose a
meaning for "elohim".
Jesus was speaking in the original Hebrew so that the Hebrew double
entendre of Psalm 82:6 would remain intact.

At no time did Jesus or the Psalm writer intend for anyone to think
that there are gods other than God.

At no time did Jesus or the Psalm writer intend for anyone to think
that human beings are gods.

By using that ambiguity of "elohim", a double entendre, Jesus was
using a variation of the parables that Jesus used for speaking to all
non-disciples.
Jesus was being deliberately cryptic because Jesus was speaking to
non-
disciples in John 8:34.

When "Abyss" and Terry Cross claim that Psalm 82 is not about the
Heavenly Judge criticizing Earthly judges, they are lying.

When "Abyss" and Terry Cross claim that Psalm 82 wants you to think
that human beings are gods, they are lying.

When "Abyss" and Terry Cross claim that Jesus wants you to think that
human beings are gods, they are lying.

In John 8:34 Jesus was relying on a double entendre in Hebrew as he
spoke the Hebrew.
When anyone tries to translate that into any other language, the
double entendre is lost, so even if the traslator recognizes the
double entendre in the original Hebrew, he is in a quandary in trying
to choose what Greek or English word to choose for the translation,
because there will be no corresponding double entendre in the Greek
translation or in the English translation.

"Abyss" and Terry Cross are *lying* to you,
because they reject the Bible,
and they want *you* to reject the Bible, too.

Mark, I hope that clarifies the matter for you.
If not, send me another email.

- moshe
Up from the Abyss
2013-03-11 01:56:29 UTC
Post by moshe
Moshe, is Up from the Abyss right about Elyon
having a different meaning from Elohim?
In the context of Psalm 82, "Abyss" is *wrong*.
<snip>

Don't you just hate it Moshe when someone forces
you to respond to one of my posts that you say you
don't read anymore?


C&P of my reply to this, as well as another reply
at which point it was that Moshe ceased to respond
to my posts:

<begin quote>

Yes Mark,

'Elohim is: alef lamed hey yod mem

`Elyon is: ayin lamed yod vav nun

`Elyon is from `alah [H5945 / 5927]

The are two different words, from two different roots
having completely different and separate etymologies.

Compare it's usage in Deuteronomy 26:19; 28:1 amoung
many other references in which `elyon is high / upper.
Post by moshe
In the context of Psalm 82, "Abyss" is *wrong*.
Moshe attempted to use 1 Samuel 14:15 as a "proof"
verse, yet, 2 Samuel 22:14; Psalm 18:13 confirm the
rendering that I gave in response to Moshe in another
post regarding this matter.

`Elyon is never rendered as "judge", is YHVH Most High
our "judge"? Yes. But, it is never, nor can it be rendered
as such. It requires a qualifier such as shaphat / palal.
Post by moshe
Facts that atheist "Abyss" deliberately ignores because
Yes, I am an atheist. But, I still encourage those who are
seeking. Yes, I am strongly opposed to those who have
made the Word of YHVH as naught, and exchanged the
truth of it for a lie.
Post by moshe
The "Elyon" of Psalm 82:6 refers to the "Elohim" / God
of verses 1 and 8, so the context does *not* differ
between "height" and "power".
LMAO!

As Moshe stated in another post, and I quote:

<quote>
Post by moshe
Psalm 82:6 contains: "gods" = "elohim"
and "Most High" = "elyon"
The Hebrew words are just relative degrees of "judge".
</quote>

Thus, Moshe did attempt to previously make the distinction
that they were differing degrees.

Yet, there is no denying that:

'el / 'elohim is related to might / strength

And that:

'elyon is related to height

Perhaps that is even why it is rendered as "Most High" /
high / upper. Whereas 'el / 'elohim is not rendered in
that manner.


God presides in the assembly of the mighty, in among
the mighty ones he judges.

The "mighty ones" are depriving others of justice and
showing partiality to the wicked. Allowing the wicked
to trample upon those in need.

I have said, you are elohim / gods / mighty ones, sons
of the Most High, but you shall die as men ...
Post by moshe
God is the ultimate "Power" *and *the ultimate "Height"
in hierarchy.
Thus, you prove that which I stated. They are two separate
words, with two different meanings. Thus, addressing and
answering Mark's question that they are indeed different.
For it requires you to use two separate and different words
to even describe this.
Post by moshe
And verse 6 says that "Elyon" is the Father of the "elohim".
So "Elyon" is the Highest "Elohim".
Thus you confirm that `Elyon is indeed related to height.

Thus, 'El `Elyon is God Most High.
Post by moshe
The *entire* Psalm 82 is talking about *judging*.
God the ultimate Judge denounces Earthly judges
for judging unfairly. God established judges on Earth,
and throughout the Old Testament God warned the
judges to judge properly, and God denounced them
when they judged improperly.
Indeed. But, that does not allow `elyon to be rendered
as "judge", for it is indeed a different and separate word
from 'el / 'elohim.
Post by moshe
Psalm 82 is one of those passages.
Read Psalm 82 and see for yourself.
Indeed.
Post by moshe
In John 10:34 Jesus was speaking Psalm 82:6 in the
original Hebrew. The original Hebrew contained the
double entendre of "elohim" having both "God" and
"judges" as meanings.
You have not yet fully supported 'elohim as "judge".
You have only cited two consecutive verses in which
it has been rendered as such. Further, those same two
passages could indeed be rendered otherwise and still
be very readable and accurate, perhaps more accurate.

That passage was Shemot [Exodus] 22:8-9. Who were
the "judges" in that passage? Were they not the Kohanim?

And was not the matter according to verse 11, not too
mention the LXX rendering, to be settled before the
Kohanim in the presence of God under oath to God?

Thus, "judges" is left as a very poor rendering of 'elohim
in those occurences IMO.
Post by moshe
Jesus was able to use that ambiguity, that double entendre
in the Hebrew, to confound the Pharisees' objection to
Jesus referring to himself as the Son of God.
No, the "Jews", the passage does not say "pharisees", took
up stones to stone him because they thought that he had
blasphemed and made himself equal to God in saying: "I
and the Father are one". Which, Jesus corrected and said
that he was the "son" of God, just as they are.
Post by moshe
Jesus was not translating into Greek where he would have
to choose a meaning for "elohim". Jesus was speaking in
the original Hebrew so that the Hebrew double entendre
of Psalm 82:6 would remain intact.
So you claim. But, you have as of yet not proven this.
In fact, your so-called "proof" to this point has come up
very short.
Post by moshe
At no time did Jesus or the Psalm writer intend for anyone
to think that there are gods other than God.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Post by moshe
At no time did Jesus or the Psalm writer intend for anyone
to think that human beings are gods.
Thus, since the 'el / 'elohim is related to stength / might.
Mighty ones is indeed a good rendering.

God presides in the assembly of the mighty, in among
the mighty ones he judges. [cf Ps 82:1]

And, why:

"Ani_'amarti 'elohim 'atem u-beney `elyon kulkem: 'aken
ke-adam temutun

I said, 'elohim / gods / mighty ones you, and sons [of] Most
High all of you: surely like-man you will die ...

'amarti is the 1st pers. *past* tense, thus clearly refering
to that which was said before.
Post by moshe
By using that ambiguity of "elohim", a double entendre,
Jesus was using a variation of the parables that Jesus
used for speaking to all non-disciples. Jesus was being
deliberately cryptic because Jesus was speaking to non-
disciples in John 8:34.
LMAO!!!

As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth ...
[cf John 9:1]

Thus, this is clearly not speaking to the same group
as in John 8:34.

The same blind man who when questioned regarding
the matter said: ego eimi : I am.

The same blind man whom the pharisees threw out.

Then came the feast of the Dedication ... it was winter ...
[cf John 10:22] and the Jews gathered around him
asking him to tell them plainly if he was the Christ.

So no Moshe, it was not the same group as in John 8:34.
Yet another of your little mistakes.
Post by moshe
When "Abyss" and Terry Cross claim that Psalm 82 is
not about the Heavenly Judge criticizing Earthly judges,
they are lying.
So, why does Moshe feel the need to drag Terry into a
response regarding that which I wrote, and attempt to
defame Terry when whatever Terry has said upon the
matter is irrelevant to that which I have spoken.

I do not speak for Terry, nor does Terry speak for me.
Post by moshe
When "Abyss" and Terry Cross claim that Psalm 82
wants you to think that human beings are gods, they
are lying.
When "Abyss" and Terry Cross claim that Jesus wants
you to think that human beings are gods, they are lying.
LMFAO!!! And yet, I have several posts out there
currently in which I have clearly stated otherwise.
Post by moshe
In John 8:34 Jesus was relying on a double entendre in
Hebrew as he spoke the Hebrew. When anyone tries
to translate that into any other language, the double
entendre is lost, so even if the traslator recognizes the
double entendre in the original Hebrew, he is in a quandary
in trying to choose what Greek or English word to choose
for the translation, because there will be no corresponding
double entendre in the Greek translation or in the English
translation.
Not really, the passage is not very difficult to render nor
to understand.

As for your alleged "double entendre", as I have said, you
have yet to substantiate it.

The nym "Up from the Abyss" is a double entendre. But
not one that you shall ever grasp.
Post by moshe
"Abyss" and Terry Cross are *lying* to you, because
they reject the Bible, and they want *you* to reject
the Bible, too.
LMAO!!! It is true that I am an atheist. But, that I no
longer believe, does not mean that I am lying, nor that
I reject the Bible.

Once upon a time, I may have read and studied it a little.

But, I am in my tenth year of no longer reading nor studying,
what I have forgotten alone, is rather appalling.

I, claim that one either accepts the whole of the Bible, or
one may as well reject all of it. You Moshe, only accept
a portion of the Scriptures, you also have forsaken a large
part of the Bible, and the message / good news / tidings
that Jesus preached. Thus, from my perspective, you are
no better than I and may as well also be an atheist for all
intents and purposes.

One either walks the walk, or one doesn't. There is no
halfway. Halfway is bullshit. Halfway will get you killed.
Post by moshe
Mark, I hope that clarifies the matter for you.
If not, send me another email.
I appreciate your posting this Moshe and allowing me the
opportunity for rebuttal.

</quote>



Let's revisit a word of the Great Moshe. In the
original post, Moshe tried to pawn off "yish`eke"
as becoming "Yeshu`ah"


<begin quote>
Post by moshe
Hang on for a brief but very technical explanation,
for people who don;t know Hebrew.
Up from the Abyss wrote:
Which, would fool the layman into thinking you were
perhaps correct and that you had actually knew what
you were talking about, that you had actually defended
that which Linda posted, or, that it even somehow
refuted that which I posted.

***BUT***
Post by moshe
Jump to the last paragraph of this post if you are in a
big hurry.
Naw, let's take this a little here and a little there.

<snip>
Post by moshe
Many Hebrew words, for both things and people's
names, change spelling throughout the Old Testament,
because the spelling tended to evolve throughout the
1,000 years from Moses writing to Malachi writing.
(I will give examples if requested)
Indeed they have. With the nuance of verbal forms
showing the greatest difference in the "evolution" of
the language.

Not long ago, I had a brief discussion with Terry in
which I demonstrated the tense / person / gender for
the binyan Qal of hayah within the DSS [Dead Sea
Scrolls] and the great Isaiah scroll thereof.
Post by moshe
Plus, Hebrew words often change internal spelling
when suffixes are added to the end of the word.
Indeed. But, in this case, not to the extent that you
are attempting to pawn off. Perhaps, like myself,
you are rusty in the language. Though I have never
claimed to be "fluent". In fact, I am far from fluent,
rudimentary is where I would I place my knowledge
level.
Post by moshe
(I know, I know, that's redundant because by
definition a suffix *always* goes at the end of a
word, but I say that for people who might not
know what a suffix is)
People do have dictionaries. OTOH: you do like
to play to the audience.

If you'd like to dance before the audience, I'm
your huckleberry. I can dance to that tune.
Post by moshe
In Isaiah 60:18 the Hebrew word for "salvation"
is spelled "yod-shin-vav-ayin-he"
Indeed, a fem. noun. Which as a noun of the tenth
declension changes to a construct form when adding
a kaf suffix to it. The difference, is that the fem. sing.
kamatz hey [-ah] is dropped and replaced by either:
patakh tav or kametz tav depending upon the construct.
Which I will demonstrate to some degree very shortly.


In the instance of a fem. pl. the fem sing. kamatz hey
[-ah] suffix is dropped and replaced by the fem. pl.
kholem malay [vav holem], tav [-ot] generally.
Though there are cases in which a kholem khaser
[holem], tav is used.

In which the fem.sing. yeshu'ah would become:

Yod shin vav ayin vav tav:

With the nikud:

Yod, shewa, shin, shureq [vav dagesh], ayin, kholem malay, tav.

Which would be yeshu`ot.

[cp 2 Sam 22:51; Tehillim 18:51 (50); 28:8; 42:6 (5); 44:5 (4)]

________________________________________


In Tehillim 43:5, a kholem khaser [holem] is used rather
than a kholem malay as I mentioned above.
[cp Isa 26:18; 33:6]

In which it is: yod shin vav ayin tav

With the nikud:

yod, shewa, shin, shureq, ayin, kholem khaser, tav

________________________________________


The kamatz hey [-ah] suffix can also be added to certain
words, whether masc. or fem. to express direction.

Such as:

H1004 bayit; masc. noun [house]:
beyt / beit in constr.
1 Kings 13:7 & 15: ha-baytah;
to the home / to home / home

Or

H6828 tzaphon; fem. noun [north]:
Zechariah 14:4 tzaphonah; to [the] north.

________________________________________


To continue:

To my knowledge, the *ONLY* instance in which the
fem. noun yeshu`ah is used as a name is in that which
you cited, Isaiah 60:18. In which, the fem. noun khomah
[wall] is to be called yeshu`ah [fem.].

It is interesting, as I shall also show with regard to the
fem. noun yeshu`ah, that khomah in this instance also
happens to have a pronominal suffix ending. Only this
time, it is the fem. pl. of khomah, khomot [walls], with
the fem. sing. pronominal suffix ending; yod kaf: Which
including the nikud is:

patakh, khereek malay [hireq yod], kaf, shewa [-aike]:

khomotaike

With the final 'e' being silent and left out in transliteration
much of the time. For the purposes of this, I am including
silent shewa's in the transliteration of the pronominal
suffix endings for overall clarity for the layman since we
are dancing to put in a show for the audience.

The kamatz hey [-ah] fem. sing. suffix was dropped and
replaced by the fem. pl. kholem khaser, tav [-ot] with the
pronominal suffix -aike.

________________________________________


There are numerous occurences of the fem. noun yeshu`ah
with various pronominal suffix endings in which it changes
to the tenth declension constr. form of the fem. noun.

For the purposes of this, I shall separate the suffix from the
root with - [example: hope-ful]. I will also separate
conjunction and prepositional prefixes and include a shewa
even when silent for the pronominal suffix endings. Further,
I shall include a list of the pronominal suffix endings in so that
if anyone is interested, they may cipher out each of the
occurrences that I shall list below.

Such as:

Be'reshit 49:18 li-yshu`at-eka

Oh, but Moshe will whine about that one, as it is
too old and not from "evolved" Ivrit. Guess I shall
leave out references in Job for the same reason.


So let's do some others:

1 Shemu'el 2:1 bi-yshu`at-eka

Tehillim 9:15 [14] bi-yshu`at-eka

Tehillim 67:3 [2] yeshu`at-eka

Tehillim 68:20 [19] yeshu`at-enu

Tehillim 119:123 li-yshu`at-eka

Oh, but Moshe still may whine, so let's
take a brief look at some in Isaiah, that
way we are *definitely* comparing apples
with apples:

Yesha`yahu 25:9 verb; ve-yoshi`enu : f.n.; bi-yshu`at-o

Yesha`yahu 33:2 yeshu`at-enu

Yesha`yahu 49:6 yeshu`at-i

Yesha`yahu 51:6 & 8 vi-yshu`at-i ; vi-yshu`at-i

Yesha`yahu 56:1 yeshu`at-i

Yesha`yahu 62:1 vi-yshu`at-ah
________________________________________

Now, let's examine a couple of instances of the
masc. noun yesha` with a pronominal suffix:

2 Shemu'el 22:36 yish`-eka

2 Shemu'el 22:47 yish`-i

Tehillim 18:36 [35] yish`-eka

Tehillim 51:14 [12] yish`-eka

Yesha`yahu 17:10 yish`-eke

Yesha`yahu 51:5 yish`-i

Yesha`yahu 62:11 [the original reference] yish`-eke

As you will notice, both the masc. and fem. pronominal
suffix endings are used above.

________________________________________

And:

Tehillim 20:6-7 in which a fem. noun, verb and a
masc. noun all appear. Respectively:

bi-yshu`at-eka : hoshia` : yesha`

hoshia` : binyan Hiphil 3rd pers. masc. sing.

________________________________________


And finally, as there are exceptions to everything,
allow me to also present an exception so that no
one can claim that I am being dishonest:

Tehillim 35:3 yeshu`at-eke
In this occurrence, the 'u' is marked by a qibbutz.
With the fem. sing. kamatz tav constr. though in an
irregular usage.

________________________________________


I can go through every occurrence if necessary,
there are 70 something of the fem. noun and only
30 something of the masc. noun.

Somewhere between 110 and 120 in total.

Thus also, the fem. noun is also the predominant of
the two within the Scriptures.
Post by moshe
It would be pronounced "Yeshuah",
with the accent on the middle syllable.
[ Skip this paragraph if you don't want to know
details on how to pronounce "Yeshua" ]
Actually, the "e" in the first syllable would be a
Hebrew "sh'va" or "shwah" pronounced as a brief
"uh" because the "e" is in an un-accented syllable.
And the "ah" in the last syllable would also is
prounounced like a brief "uh", because the "ah" is
also in an un-accented syllable. So, to make it
extremely easy to know how to pronounce "Yeshua"
or "Y'shua", a perfectly-explanatory but not-so-pretty
transliteration might be "yuh-SHOO-uh".
But the transliteration "Yeshua" (or "Yeshuah" or
"Y'shua") is perfectly acceptable and much prettier.
That all sounds wonderful... *EXCEPT*

You would *never* transliterate a masc. noun
as "Yeshuah / Yeshu`ah". That is a fem. noun,
and though some do in transliteration drop the
hey of the fem. noun at times:

That being said however: ***NO*** one
transliterates the masc. noun yeshua` / y'shua`
as yeshu`ah as you are implying above.
Thus, that which you nicely laid out above is not
only inaccurate, but *very* misleading.

Which, I shall I hope that it was well intended.
Perhaps merely a result of pain and the lack of
sleep. Perhaps being rusty in the language.

I keep trying to tell myself that.

But my gut tells me that is not the case.

My gut says that you either are not as knowledgeable
as you would like us to believe, and have bullshitted
your way past most.

OR:

That you are doing this with intent.

Currently, I am hoping the former is the case rather
than the latter. And again, I keep trying to tell myself
and hope that it was well intended and an honest
mistake. Based upon our discussion(s) thus far
though, I am really having trouble trying to believe
that.
Post by moshe
Isaiah 62:11 says "your salvation".
<snip link per my usual form>
Post by moshe
In the Hebrew, "your" is *not* a separate word, rather
it is a Hebrew letter "kaf" suffix added to the end of the
word.
Which, I had already explained.

And which, kaf is used of a sing. noun for both the masc.
and fem. sing. pronominal suffix endings. The difference,
is readily recognized by context, or the nikud.

The masc. form is: shewa kaf kamatz ; -eka
The fem. form is: tzeyrah kaf shewa ; -eke

Both the masc. and fem. pronominal suffix endings
can be added to either a masc. or a fem. noun.


Such as: When speaking of daughter of a man:
It would be 'your daughter', with the masc. sing. kaf
pronominal suffix added unto daughter.

When speaking of the son of a woman:
It would be 'your son' with the fem. sing. kaf
pronominal suffix added unto son.


In the case of pl. nouns, a yod kaf suffix is used for both
the masc. and fem. sing. pronominal suffix endings.

The masc. form being: seghol, yod, kaf, kamatz ; -eyka
The fem. form being: patakh, khereek malay, kaf, shewa ; -aike

________________________________________


The masc. and fem. pl. pronominal suffix endings differ
as I shall lay out below.

________________________________________


Basic pronominal suffix endings:

Sefer [sepher]: masc. sing. noun; book

sifri ; my book
sifreka ; your book [masc sing]
sifreke ; your book [fem sing]
sifro ; his book
sifrah ; her book
sifrenu ; our book
sifrekem ; your book [masc pl]
sifreken ; your book [fem pl]
sifram ; their book [masc pl]
sifran ; their book [fem pl]


Sefarim [sepharim]: masc. pl. noun; books

sefaray ; my books
sefareyka ; your books [masc sing]
sefaraike ; your books [fem sing]
sefarayv ; his books
sefareyah ; her books
sefareynu ; our books
sifreykem ; your books [masc pl]
sifreyken ; your books [fem pl]
sifreyhem ; their books [masc pl]
sifreyhen ; their books [fem pl]
Post by moshe
(The same pattern is seen in the Hebrew word "rabbi",
where "rav" is "teacher" and the "i" suffix is "my"
resulting in "rabbi" meaning "my teacher".)
Which may be clearly seen in the pronominal suffix
list that I laid out above. As well as the examples
of the masc. and fem. nouns. Respectively:

yesh`i : yeshu`ati


yish`eka : yeshu`ateka

As you will notice, the pattern of the nikud in
the original reference of Isaiah 62:11 fits the
masc. sing. declension.

Yet again, proving that you were mistaken in
your reply.
Post by moshe
Because the Hebrew letter "kaf" suffix meaning "your"
is added to "Y'shuah" in Isaiah 62:11
As I have clearly shown above, you are mistaken.
If it was added to "yeshu`ah" as you are asserting,
the vav would remain, the absol. sing. hey would
change to the constr. form tav.

In Isaiah 62:11, the root is yod shin ayin;
yesha`, a sing. masc. noun.

The nikud follow the pattern of a masc. sing.
noun of the first of the sixth declension in suffix:

yesha; yod, segol, shin, patakh, ayin

yish`eke; yod, khereek, shin, shewa, ayin, tzeyreh, kaf, shewa

Thus Moshe, you are clearly shown as being mistaken / incorrect.
Post by moshe
Hebrew automatically drops the Hebrew letter "vav"
from inside "yod-shin-vav-ayin-he" and automatically
drops the Hebrew letter "he" from the end of the word,
then adds the "kaf" to the end of the word, resulting in
"your salvation" being spelled "yod-shin-ayin-kaf".
Either you are really full of it, or you are mistaken.

I have clearly laid out above that the fem. noun
yeshu`ah takes the constr. form which maintains
the vav and changes the absol. sing. hey into the
constr. tav.
Post by moshe
When Hebrew changes the internal consonants in a word
to accommodate adding a suffix letter at the end of the word,
that also changes the vowel points throughout the Hebrew word.
That does not always hold true. Nouns of the first declension
of the masculines have do *NOT* always change the nikud
before the suffix. Such as ger.

________________________________________


Sefer [book], for which I listed the pronominal suffix endings
above is the second of the sixth declension which follows the
pattern:

Sing. absol.: sefer; samekh, tzeyreh, fey, segol, resh

Constr.: sefer; samekh, tzeyreh, fey, segol, resh

Light suffix: sifri; samekh, khereek [hireq], fey, shewa, resh,
khereek malay [hireq yod].

Grave suffix: sifrekem; samekh, khereek, fey, shewa, resh,
shewa, kaf, segol, mem

Pl. absol.: sefarim; samekh, shewa, fey, kametz, resh,
khereek malay, mem

Constr.: sifrey; samekh, khereek, fey, shewa, resh,
tzeyreh yod

Light suffix: sefaray; samekh, shewa, fey, kametz, resh,
patakh, yod

Grave suffix: sifreykem; samekh, khereek, fey, shewa, resh,
tzeyreh yod, kaf, segol, mem
Post by moshe
So adding the "kaf" = "your" suffix causes the pronunciation
"Y'shuah" to change to "Yeeshech".
I do believe that I have shown enough above to prove
that you are full of shit here.
Post by moshe
If a person is translating from Hebrew,
and *if* the person wishes to translate the "kaf" suffix as
"your', but wishes to leave the "salvation" in Hebrew,
then the Hebrew word reverts back to being "Y'shuah"
because it no longer has a Hebrew suffix attached to it
to require the consonant and vowel changes.
I bet you thought you got away with this with me
being away. But, as I have more than shown above,
you are mistaken in that which you are attempting
to pawn off.

As I said previously, anyone *fluent* in Hebrew, and
who is reading or translating it, is *NOT* going to make
that mistake. Nor, are they going to translate everything
except yesha` [yish` in the grave suffix form]. Nor, would
anyone *fluent* in Ivrit pronounce or translate it as
"Yeshua`". Further, in Isaiah 62:11, it is a masc. noun.
It is ***NOT*** the fem. noun that you are attempting
to pawn off here with yeshu`ah. Nor can you attempt
to pawn off yeshu`ah as a masc. proper noun.

Unless of course, you are a cross dresser or transgender,
perhaps even pre-op.


Again, it is *NOT* a masc. proper noun as in yeshua`.

It would revert to yesha`: yod shin ayin.

There would be ***NO*** vav, or shureq, or
even a qibbutz. Which I have shown an occurrence
of above.


With the nikud, the: yod, khereek, shin, shewa, ayin

of Isaiah 62:11:

Would revert to: yod, segol, shin, patakh, ayin

Again, as I said above, you are full of shit.
Hopefully you were only mistaken.
________________________________________

I really keep trying to give you the benefit of the
doubt with regard to this... but I am seriously
having a hard time doing so.


So as I previously stated: Cute story, but NOT
believable. No one *fluent* in Ivrit is going to
make such a faux pas. Nor, is anyone *fluent*
in Ivrit going to try and pawn off the shit you
were trying to pawn off here. At least, not if
they are honest.

So, hopefully, you are merely rusty and made an
honest error.
Post by moshe
It's now 8:45 am.
I hope my foot stops hurting so that I can finally get some sleep.
I hope you got some relief from the pain, as well as some rest.

Go in peace Moshe.

</quote>


So, decide for yourself Mark.
moshe
2013-03-11 09:46:39 UTC
Post by moshe
Quoted from:https://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/465fcf2abbae6ccb?dm...
<snip>
That true of man generally, but this Psalm refers ...
<snip>
... so when God says of them, "ye are gods", I think it
refers to them being angels, angels who are "children
of the most High" (angels also being called the "SONS
of God" - Gen. 6:4 & Job 38:7)
Here Linda openly promotes her fallen angel theory
and yet Moshe remains silent unto her.
So when Jesus said it, he was refering to them as
fallen angels LMAO!!
And, Linda may still be selling her book for "gain"
which promotes this 'heresy'.
Are you serious? She wrote a book on that?
--
Peter
====================
Linda Lee's theory is a variation of
some beliefs that surround Genesis 6:2.
I disagree with Linda Lee's belief regarding that,
but Linda Lee's belief does not have any direct impact
on her salvation or the salvation of anyone else.
It is a "side issue".
You never did argue with me about that issue, even when we were at
odds years ago.
========================
"even when we were at odds years ago"
Do not believe it, folks.
Linda Lee and I never dated.
My ego prevents me from dating people who are prettier than I am.
========================
I wonder though what do you think about Christ/God saying to the
Israelites, "Ye are gods", when God said there were no other gods
besides Himself (Isa. 45:5, 6, & 21), and God also said that the
'other gods' weren't really gods at all, but were actually devils
(Deut. 32:17)?
=========================
This is just the way I see it.
Not written in stone.
And not written with your finger? Lol!
If you look up every instance in which that Hebrew word and related
Hebrew words occur in the Bible,
context determines definition.
Psalm 82:6http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=82&v=6&t=NKJV#conc/6
 "gods" = "elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
and "Most High" = "elyon"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5945...
The Hebrew words are just relative degrees of "judge".
So you say
אלהים 'elohiym means JUDGES???
Moshe, you are so full of it.
TCross
=================
"Elohim"http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&...
"Elohim" can mean "judges" as an idiom.
Just as "Elohohim" can mean "God" as an idiom.
In the most literal sense it means "powerful".
Then it takes on more specific meanings based on context.
See Genesis 23:6.
"Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty prince among us: in the choice of
our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his
sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=23&v=6&t=KJV#6
"Hear us, my lord: thou art an "elohim" prince among us: in the choice
of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee
his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead."
See Genesis 30:8.
"And Rachel said, With great wrestlings have I wrestled with my
sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=30&t=KJV#8
"And Rachel said, With "elohim" wrestlings have I wrestled with my
sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali.
See Jonah 3:3.
"So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the
LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey."
"So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the
LORD. Now Nineveh was an "elohim" great city of three days' journey."
See Exodus 9:28.
"Intreat the LORD for it is enough that there be no more mighty
thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no
longer."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=9&v=28&t=KJV#28
"Intreat the LORD for it is enough that there be no more "elohim"
thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no
longer."
"If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be
brought unto the judges, [to see] whether he have put his hand unto
his neighbour's goods.
For all manner of trespass, [whether it be] for ox, for ass, for
sheep, for raiment, [or] for any manner of lost thing, which [another]
challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the
judges; [and] whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto
his neighbour."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=22&v=8&t=KJV#8
"If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be
brought unto the "elohim", [to see] whether he have put his hand unto
his neighbour's goods.
For all manner of trespass, [whether it be] for ox, for ass, for
sheep, for raiment, [or] for any manner of lost thing, which [another]
challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the
"elohim"; [and] whom the "elohoim" shall condemn, he shall pay double
unto his neighbour."
"If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a
man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding
they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD
would slay them."http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Sa&c=2&v=25&t=KJV#25
"If one man sin against another, the "elohim" shall judge him: but if
a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding
they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD
would slay them."
"And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the
people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the
earth quaked: so it was a very great trembling."
"And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the
people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the
earth quaked: so it was a "elohim" trembling."
- moshe
============================
Moshe, is Up from the Abyss right about Elyon having a different
meaning from Elohim?
In the context of Psalm 82, "Abyss" is *wrong*.
Facts that atheist "Abyss" deliberately ignores because he wants to
The "Elyon" of Psalm 82:6 refers to the "Elohim" / God of verses 1
and
8,
so the context does *not* differ between "height" and "power".
God is the ultimate "Power" *and *the ultimate "Height" in hierarchy.
And verse 6 says that "Elyon" is the Father of the "elohim".
So "Elyon" is the Highest "Elohim".
The *entire* Psalm 82 is talking about *judging*.
God the ultimate Judge denounces Earthly judges for judging unfairly.
God established judges on Earth, and throughout the Old Testament God
warned the judges to judge properly, and God denounced them when they
judged improperly.
Psalm 82 is one of those passages.
Read Psalm 82 and see for yourself.
In John 10:34 Jesus was speaking Psalm 82:6 in the original Hebrew.
The original Hebrew contained the double entendre of "elohim" having
both "God" and "judges" as meanings.
Jesus was able to use that ambiguity, that double entendre in the
Hebrew, to confound the Pharisees' objection to Jesus referring to
himself as the Son of God.
Jesus was not translating into Greek where he would have to choose a
meaning for "elohim".
Jesus was speaking in the original Hebrew so that the Hebrew double
entendre of Psalm 82:6 would remain intact.
At no time did Jesus or the Psalm writer intend for anyone to think
that there are gods other than God.
At no time did Jesus or the Psalm writer intend for anyone to think
that human beings are gods.
By using that ambiguity of "elohim", a double entendre, Jesus was
using a variation of the parables that Jesus used for speaking to all
non-disciples.
Jesus was being deliberately cryptic because Jesus was speaking to
non-
disciples in John 8:34.
When "Abyss" and Terry Cross claim that Psalm 82 is not about the
Heavenly Judge criticizing Earthly judges, they are lying.
When "Abyss" and Terry Cross claim that Psalm 82 wants you to think
that human beings are gods, they are lying.
When "Abyss" and Terry Cross claim that Jesus wants you to think that
human beings are gods, they are lying.
In John 8:34 Jesus was relying on a double entendre in Hebrew as he
spoke the Hebrew.
When anyone tries to translate that into any other language, the
double entendre is lost, so even if the traslator recognizes the
double entendre in the original Hebrew, he is in a quandary in trying
to choose what Greek or English word to choose for the translation,
because there will be no corresponding double entendre in the Greek
translation or in the English translation.
"Abyss" and Terry Cross are *lying* to you,
because they reject the Bible,
and they want *you* to reject the Bible, too.
Mark, I hope that clarifies the matter for you.
If not, send me another email.
- moshe
==================

Orthodox Jews are apparently unanimous in saying that
"elohim" means "judges" in Psalm 82:1.

Quoted from the ultra-Orthodox Chabad Web site:
"A song of Asaph. God stands in the congregation of God; in the midst
of the judges He will judge."
- Psalm 82:1
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16303

Quoted from the Orthodox site Torah.org:
"G-d stands in the assembly of G-d -- in the midst of the judges He
will judge."
- Psalm 82:1
http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5760/tzav.html

Quoted from the Orthodox site Torah.org:
"..in the presence of judges He will judge" (Tehillim 82:1)
- Psalm 82:1
http://www.torah.org/learning/maharal/p3m7part1.html

Quoted from the Orthodox site Mechon-Mamre:
- Psalm 82:1
"in the midst of the judges He judgeth"
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2682.htm#1

Quoted from the Orthodox site Torah.org:
"(Tehillim 82:1): "Elokim nitzav ba-adat Kel, be-kerev elohim
yishpot," "God is found in a community of Godliness, amongst judges He
will judge."
- Psalm 82:1
http://vbm-torah.org/archive/sichot/shemot/18-62mishpatim.htm

Quoted from the site "Beyond Teshuva":
‘In the midst of judges He judges’ (Psalms 82:1)."
- Psalm 82:1
http://www.beyondbt.com/2006/05/05/this-week-in-pirkei-avos/

Quoted from the site "Jewish Lens":
"(Psalm 82:1) "He judges in the midst of the judges."
- Psalm 82:1
http://www.jewishlens.org/chinuch-education

- moshe
Up from the Abyss
2013-03-12 11:59:34 UTC
This is a C&P response to Moshe's multiplying of his
words. Since he likes to post two or more copies
of most everything that he writes as a second witness.
Post by moshe
Orthodox Jews are apparently unanimous in saying that
"elohim" means "judges" in Psalm 82:1.
I am taking the liberty of rearranging Moshe's quotes
for the purposes of this reply.
Post by moshe
"A song of Asaph. God stands in the congregation of God;
in the midst of the judges He will judge."
- Psalm 82:1
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16303
In 82:6 : I said, "You are angelic creatures, and all of you are
angels of the Most High."

Thus, those whom Moshe has quoted as being absolutely
authorative upon the matter, and "unanimous", also
translated 'elohim as "angelic creatures" in verse 6.
"Angelic creatures" is a far cry from a "unanimous"
translation of "judges".

So while Moshe didn't technically lie, he did use slight
of hand saying look here. But not actually addressing
the whole of the matter. Since the rendering of 'elohim
in verse 6 is the primary point of debate, thus it is
important to also show how thus same websites
rendered / translated 'elohim in verse 6.

Also, in the above, they translated beney, the masc.
pl. constru. form which is generally translated "sons of"
has been rendered / translated as "angels"

To sum up here: This reference is disqualified IMO
as supporting 'elohim in verse 6 as being "judges"

Score:
Moshe; bupkis : Disqualified; 1
Post by moshe
- Psalm 82:1
"in the midst of the judges He judgeth"
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2682.htm#1
In verse 82:6 : I said: Ye are godlike beings, and all
of you sons of the Most High.

Here again, Moshe's appeal to authority does not hold
up and falls short of the mark.

Thus, those whom Moshe has quoted as being absolutely
authorative upon the matter, and "unanimous", also
translated 'elohim as "godlike beings" in verse 6.
"Godlike beings" is a far cry from a "unanimous"
translation of "judges".

Again, the verse in question and under debate, is the
rendering of 'elohim in verse 6. So again, Moshe's
attempted "proof" does not hold up in full.

Again, this is slight of hand. The debate is the rendering
of 'elohim in verse 6.

So again, this refererence is disqualified as supporting
'elohim as being translated "judges" in verse 6.

Score:
Moshe; bupkis : Disqualified; 2
Post by moshe
"(Tehillim 82:1): "Elokim nitzav ba-adat Kel, be-kerev elohim
yishpot," "God is found in a community of Godliness, amongst
judges He will judge."
- Psalm 82:1
http://vbm-torah.org/archive/sichot/shemot/18-62mishpatim.htm
Now, this one is interesting. A transliteration is included. So allow
me to transliterate the same portion:

'Elohim ['Elokim] nitzav ba-`adat_'El be-qerev 'Elohim yishpot:

The difference in the first word: 'Elokim / 'Elohim is a diacritic
over the letter hey. This can also be seen within Psalm 47,
and does not effect translation. As you will notice on the
two previous sites, it is not even shown on them.

The next difference to note is with regard to be-kerev / be-qerev,
which is simply a difference in the standard of transliteration used.

The last, and only difference of real note, is with regard to Kel / 'el
That the K is capitalized IMO is indicative of one of two things:

1) to distinguish the kaf from the qof of be-kerev

2) that it was added to the text.

I checked three different codices and none of them contained
a kaf before 'el. The addition of the kaf, allows the rendering /
translation of "godliness".

What is the source of this: The webpage itself indicates it is from:
"(Sandhedrin 7a)". IOW: It is from the Talmud.


Since Moshe has introduced this site as "proof", it is now up
to Moshe to provide a translation of verse 6 from this site.

Failure to provide said translation of verse 6 from this site,
disqualifies this as a viable and reliable witness.
Post by moshe
'In the midst of judges He judges' (Psalms 82:1)."
- Psalm 82:1
http://www.beyondbt.com/2006/05/05/this-week-in-pirkei-avos/
"(Psalm 82:1) "He judges in the midst of the judges."
- Psalm 82:1
http://www.jewishlens.org/chinuch-education
"..in the presence of judges He will judge" (Tehillim 82:1)
- Psalm 82:1
http://www.torah.org/learning/maharal/p3m7part1.html
I placed these three all together, to deal with them as a
unit.

On the first one:
"Rabbi Chalafta the son of Dosa of K'far Chananya said,
if ten people sit together ... "

On the second one:
"Rabbi Chalafta of Kefar Chanania used to say:
If ten people sit together ... "

On the third one:
"Rebbe Chalaftah ben Dosa from Kfar Chanina says:
Ten people who are sitting ... "

As you can see, they are all from the same source.
It is like finding several websites that all use the KJV
and therefore proclaiming that it is "unanimous"
that the KJV is the only correct rendering / translation.

IOW: It's bullshit. All three are from the Mishna.
Three quotes of the same thing, do not make three
different witnesses all testifying to the same thing.

Otherwise, I could just pick whatever translation
I wanted, and copy and paste it here ten times and
claim look, there's ten witnesses that are unanimous!!!

LMAO! Sorry, but that just doesn't work.

If you actually read the passage from the Mishna,
Rabbi Chalafta is using Psalm 82:1a to support
that where any ten are gathered together to study
Torah, the presence of God is there amoung them.
He continues using Amos 9:6 if five are present,
and uses Psalm 82:1b to support that the divine
presence is there among them if only three are
present.

And again, since Moshe has now introduced this, he
needs to also provide the translation of verse 6 and
how 'elohim was rendered / translated.

Otherwise, the last four sites that Moshe has quoted
are worthless and disqualified since it is the translation
of 'elohim in verse 6 that is the subject of debate.
Post by moshe
"G-d stands in the assembly of G-d -- in the midst of the
judges He will judge."
- Psalm 82:1
http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5760/tzav.html
And this one, is simply the weekly Torah portion [from 13
years ago] which is quoted from the same website that is
quoted from above this. Again, it is like finding a website
which quotes the same verse from the KJV twice. It is not
a valid second witness in this regard.

I may as well quote the daily reading from the Catholic Mass,
for it may as well bear as much weight.

And again, Moshe must now provide a quote of
Tehillim 82:6 since it is how 'elohim was or should
be translated that is the topic of debate.


To sum up, while this may have appeared to Moshe's
opinion with regard to the topic of debate, which is
'elohim in Psalms 82:6, it was really a case of
misdirection, slight of hand. A half-truth.

Up from the Abyss
2013-03-12 11:57:20 UTC
<snip>

Bump.
Genesis 23:6. ... mighty prince
Or, one could render nesi' elohim : "prince of God" among us.

As the LXX renders it: basileus para Theou : king from of God.

<snip>
See Genesis 30:8. ... With great wrestlings
In the Hebrew that is: ... With "elohim" wrestlings
naphtuley 'elohim : wrestling of God / might

With wrestling of might I wrestled

With wrestling of God I wrestled

LXX sunantelabeto mou [moi] ho Theos kai sonanestraphen
See Jonah 3:3. ... exceeding great city
In the Hebrew that is: an "elohim" great city
haytah `ir_gedolah l-'elohim : she was city great to God

LXX: polis megale to Theo

Which can be literally rendered: a great city to God
See Exodus 9:28. ... mighty thunderings
In the Hebrew that is: ... "elohim" thunderings
qolot 'elohim

mighty thunderings / voices of God

LXX: phonas Theou : voice of God


Also see 2 Samuel 22:14; Psalm 18:13.
Exodus 22:8-9 ... which has 3 instances of "elohim" as "judges": ...
In the Hebrew that is: ... the "elohim" ... the "elohim";
[and] whom the "elohoim"
'el_ha-'elohim ... ha-'elohim ... 'elohim

And in verse 11 it goes on to say:
shevu`at YHVH : oath of YHVH

LXX enopion tou Theou ... enopion tou Theou ... dia tou Theou :

In the presence [before] of God ... in the presence [before] of
God ... by [of] God.

Which is in accord with verse 11.
See I Samuel 2:25: ... the judge shall judge him
u-pilelo 'elohim ... mi yitpalel_lo

and mediates [judges] him elohim ;
God mediates for him
piel; 3rd pers. preterit

mi yitpalel_lo : who shall intercede_for him
hithpael; 3rd pers sing. fut.

LXX pros Kurion ... to Kurio
See I Samuel 14:15: ... great trembling."
In the Hebrew that is: ... "elohim" trembling."
va-tehi le-kherdat 'elohim : and she was as trembling of God

LXX: para Kuriou : from of Lord [God]

Your so-called "proofs" are weak at best. The LXX
would seem to refute you at almost every point, let
alone some of the nuance of the Hebrew langauge.
Up from the Abyss
2013-03-12 11:57:29 UTC
<snip>

Bump.
Post by moshe
When Jesus quoted Scripture, Jesus quoted in the
original Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic (the latter
books of the Old Testament contained much
Aramaic).
LMAO!!!

Let's see, we have:

Daniel 2-7
Ezra 4-7

Nor, are the chapters I mention above completely Aramaic.

That ***IS*** the bulk of Aramaic in the Bible.

Not much overall.

In fact, only about 1% of the TaNaKh.
Post by moshe
So when Terry Cross relies on an English translation of a
Greek translation of the Hebrew originals, to "prove" what
the originals said, that is ridiculous.
Yet, it goes to show how it was understood at that time by
those fluent and knowledgeable in the TaNaKh.
Post by moshe
I am in complete agreement with the ancient rabbis about
what the raw words are and what the raw meanings are,
but the nuances in the original text can lead to several
different translations which are all "correct".
LMFAO!!! Yeah, like "angelic creatures" and beney
is now "angels".
Post by moshe
The entire Psalm 82 is about *judges* who *judge*,
and other Bible verses explicitly have "elohim"
translated as "judges" because the context warrants it.
Because the context warrants it. But, it is unwarranted,
which verse 7 makes clear, for it states that even though
they are called "elohim" [theoi / gods], they shall die as
men.
Post by moshe
Even people who want to translate the last word of Psalm
82:1 as "gods" do so while acknowledging that the people
being referred to are not literally "gods".
It could just as easily be rendered "mighty ones".
Post by moshe
So when Terry Cross said that I was "full of it"
for translating "elohim" as "judges" rather than "gods",
Terry Cross was being dishonest again.
Moshe, you are quoting a few verses out of over some
2,200 occurrences in which "elohim" was rendered as
"judge / judges". Of which, there are only just a few
occurrences. Of the 7 examples you gave, how many
of those were actually with regard to "judges"?

Only one had any real merit as a possibility.


God presides in the assembly of the mighty, in among
the mighty ones he judges.

The "mighty ones" are depriving others of justice and
showing partiality to the wicked. Allowing the wicked
to trample upon those in need.

I have said, you are elohim / gods / mighty ones, sons
of the Most High, but you shall die as men ...

Even if you attempt to render it as "judges", which the
context does not support, and thus why no translation
that I can think of has rendered it as such, they are
still to die. And YHVH still shaphatim / judges among
them.

In John 10, they accused him of making himself equal
to God, yet the Scripture says, they are "elohim", and
Jesus goes on to say, he is the "son" of God.

Not God himself.
Up from the Abyss
2013-03-12 11:57:43 UTC
Bump.
Post by moshe
Post by moshe
"El" means "mighty" in in Ezekiel 31:11 and "strong" in
Ezekiel 32:21.
You might want to check that. Ezekiel 31:11 is 'eyl [H352].

Ezekiel 32:21 is: lo 'eley giborim and could be rendered:
"to him mighty of strength" just as easily.

'eley is the pl. constu. form: And can be rendered "gods of".

Once again, you err with regard to Ivrit. That's strike three
Moshe. Three obvious and blatant errors that you have
made on that front.

You speak more as one who is relatively ignorant and
pretends to have some knowledge by using a Strong's,
than as one who actually really has some knowledge.

You do verse searches comparing it's usage, yet have
failed in that you have included words that are not even
the word you claim, or are of a binyan that disallows a
certain rendering.

<snip>
Post by moshe
Terry Cross is now pointing out that *context" affects
word meaning?
Strange, because every time we tell Terry Cross to
look at context, she refuses to.
For example,
when I pointed out yesterday that in Psalm 82
the Hebrew words "Elyon" and "elohim"
"are just relative degrees of "judge""
And again, you were mistaken.

`elyon is : ayin lamed ... and is related to height.
'elohim is : alef lamen ... and is related to strength.

<snip>
Post by moshe
So my definition of "Elyon" and "elohim" as differing degrees
of judges was *completely* correct within the context shown
in Psalm 82.
Bullshit!!!

They are not even of the same etymology.

<snip of bullshit that attempts to have an
appearance of knowledge>

For not the hearers of the law are just before
God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: