"how to use Daf Yomi Web site" from moshe

[j***@hotmail.com]

I often quote from the Talmud page descriptions given by Daf Yomi.

Here are instructions on how to use that Web site yourself whenever you
see somebody cite a Talmud page.

I will walk you through an example in which we find where the rabbis in
Sanhedrin 98a of Talmud misrepresent Isaiah 60:22 to claim that God
will fulfill *either* Daniel 7:13 *or* Zechariah 9:9 but not both,
depending on which fulfuillment Israel is worthy of when the time
comes.

-------begin quote--------

"If they are worthy, 'I will hasten it' [Isaiah 60:22]; if not 'in its
time'
[also Isaiah 60:22]... If they are worthy, [Moshiach will come] 'with
the clouds of heaven' [Daniel 7:13]; if [Israel is] not [worthy],
'lowly
and riding on a donkey' [Zechariah 9:9]" (Sanhedrin 98a)

- Sanhedrin 98a of Talmud

----------end quote--------------

Things to know:

"Daf Yomi" means "Daily Talmud page"; every follower of Judaism in the
world reads the same assigned Talmud page for each day so as to keep
all followers world-wide "in sync" with each other and to assure that
the entire Talmud is read in a specific amount of time.

"Shema Yisrael" is an ultra-Orthodox Web site so the interpretations
you see will always be Orthodox.

Although the site is in English, it throws in many Hebrew words that
you might have to "Google" if you don't have a backgoround in such
terminology.
You can also see if some of the Hebrew words can be found in one of
these Hebrew glossaries, keeping in mind that different people use
slightly different spellings / transliterations:
http://headcoverings-by-devorah.com/HebglossA.html
http://www.jewfaq.org/glossary.htm

What you see at the site is *not* the Talmud page itself, but rather a
description of that Talmud page by a modern Israeli ultra-Orthodox
rabbi; thus, you cannot be accused of misunderstanding the Talmud
passage because an ultra-Orthodox rabbi is interpreting it for you.

So now I will walk you through an example in which we find where the
rabbis in Sanhedrin 98a misrepresent God's words in Isaiah 60:22:

Go to the Daf Yomi home page at:
http://dafyomi.shemayisrael.co.il/index.htm

At the bottom of the page click on the name of the Talmud tractate /
volume you are interested in, keeping in mind that different people use
different spellings, such as "Shabbos" instead of "Shabbat".

For this learning example click on "Sanhedrin".
You will be taken to a page at
http://dafyomi.shemayisrael.co.il/sanhedrin/index.htm
which lists the following choices:

-----

"Insights to the Daf" - a sermonette regarding a part of that Talmud
page

-----

"Background to the Daf" - Hebrew/English translations of key passages
for that Talmud page

-----

"Daf Review Q and A" - you can choose either questions or answers for
testing yourself on the contents of that Talmud page

-----

Point by Point Summary - lists most of the points found on that Talmud
page

-----

Although I often consult all four sections, for this example click
""Daf Review Q and A"
so that you are taken to:
http://dafyomi.shemayisrael.co.il/sanhedrin/qaindex-up.htm

On that page find "Daf 98" and click on the "A" next to it so that you
will be taken to the page of answers (rather than to the page of
questions) at:
http://dafyomi.shemayisrael.co.il/sanhedrin/reviewa/sn-ra-098.htm

Since the passage we are looking for is at "Sanhedrin 98a" rather than
"Sanhedrin 98b", look for reference to the Talmud passage we are
looking for on the upper half of that Web page.
"98b-----98b" separates the "a" part from the "b" part on that Web
page.

Unfortunately, the description of the passage we are looking for is in
"3b" and is unintelligible to a person who doesn't know Herbrew (the
pages in this Web site are not usually this bad in that respect).

So let's hit the browser "back button" twice until we get back to the
top of the Sanhedrin menu at:
http://dafyomi.shemayisrael.co.il/sanhedrin/index.htm

This time click "Insights to the Daf" which will take you to Web page
http://dafyomi.shemayisrael.co.il/sanhedrin/insites/insites-up.htm

On that page click "Daf 98"

Within the upper half of the page you will find the following quote:

-------begin quote--------

2) "B'ITAH" OR "ACHISHENAH"?

AGADAH: The Gemara points out that there is a contradiction between the
verses concerning when Mashi'ach will come. The verse (Yeshayah 60:22)
first says that Hashem will bring the Ge'ulah "in its time" ("b'Itah").
The verse then says that Hashem "will hasten" ("Achishenah") the
Ge'ulah, implying that Mashi'ach will come before the predestined time.
The Gemara answers that if the Jewish people are worthy, then the
coming of Mashi'ach will be hastened. If they are not worthy, then the
Mashi'ach will come only in his predestined time.

The Gemara continues and says that if the Jewish people are worthy,
then the Mashi'ach will come riding "upon the clouds." If the Jewish
people are not worthy, then the Mashi'ach will come as a pauper riding
on a donkey.

- quoted from
http://dafyomi.shemayisrael.co.il/sanhedrin/insites/sn-dt-098.htm

--------end quote---------

From that you can see how Sanhdrin 98a misrepresents Isaiah 60:22.

When God says "I will hasten it in its time", the rabbis falsely claim
it says "I will hasten it *or* in its time", as though God is
describing 2 possible contradictory scenarios.

A Google search shows that other Web sites confirm that Sanhedrin 98a
says that:

-----------begin quote------

R. Alexandri said, R. Joshua contrasted two verses: It is written,
"And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven"
(Daniel 7:13), and another verse says, "[behold, your king comes to
you...] humble and riding on an ass" (Zechariah 9:7). If Israel merits
it, [he will come] "with the clouds of heaven"; if not, [he will be]
"humble and riding on an ass."
--Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 98a

- quoted from
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/ideas_belief/afterlife/AE_Messianism_TO/AE_Messiah.htm


-----------begin quote-------

Similarly, the Talmud interprets:

Rebi Alexandri said: Rebi Yehoshua ben Levi raised the following
contradiction: It says, "Behold like the clouds of Heaven came one
like the son of man" (Daniel 7:13). It is also written, "Lowly and
riding upon a donkey" (Zechariah 9:9). If they merit it, he will come
with the clouds of Heaven, but if they do not merit it, he will come
upon a donkey. (Sanhedrin 98a)

- quoted from
http://www.neveh.org/winston/parsha63/toldos.html


------------begin quote------

Similarly, the Talmud interprets:

Rebi Alexandri said: Rebi Yehoshua ben Levi raised the following
contradiction: It says, "Behold like the clouds of Heaven came one
like the son of man" (Daniel 7:13). It is also written, "Lowly and
riding upon a donkey" (Zechariah 9:9). If they merit it, he will come
with the clouds of Heaven, but if they do not merit it, he will come
upon a donkey. (Sanhedrin 98a)

- quoted from
http://www.thirtysix.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=64


-------------begin quote----------

...there are two possible scenarios of the coming of the Messiah
reported in the Talmud:

R'Alexandri said: "R'Joshua ben Levi pointed out a contradiction. It
is written, 'In its time [will be the coming of the Messiah]', whilst
it is also written, 'I [the Lord] will hasten it! If they are worthy,
I will hasten it: if not, at the due time.' ... It is [also] written,
'And behold, one like the son of man comes with the clouds of heaven',
whilst [elsewhere] it is written, 'lowly, and riding upon a donkey!'
If they are worthy, [he will come] with the clouds of heaven; if not,
lowly and riding upon a donkey." [Sanhedrin 98a]

- quoted from
http://www.aish.com/torahportion/moray/The_First_Matriarch.asp

---------------end quote---------------

[cindys]

A *daf* is a page (of talmud) front and back. There are people who have
taken it upon themselves to learn the entire talmud one page at a time. It
takes a total of 7-1/2 years to go through the entire talmud. Even seasoned
learners (people who have been learning for years and who, unlike Morris,
can actually read and translate Hebrew and Aramaic) may spend up to several
hours learning the daf yomi (page of the day) on any given day. The daf yomi
is for people who are not in yeshiva full time and who have limited time to
study. The "Daf Yomi Web Site" is a way for people (who are engaged in this
process of daily talmud learning and who have invested a considerable amount
of time to learning the daf yomi, in Aramaic and Hebrew, on any given day)
to have a means to do a quick review of the highlights, a way to summarize
their learning in an organized fashion. The Daf Yomi website represents the
ultimate in short-hand notes. Morris does not learn talmud, has never
learned talmud, is unable to learn talmud. He doesn't understand the first
thing about the daf yomi website, its purpose, or how to use it.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Post by j***@hotmail.com
I often quote from the Talmud page descriptions given by Daf Yomi.

No you don't.

<Snippage of Morris' usual waste of space, out-of-context cites>
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Terry Cross]

Post by cindys
A *daf* is a page (of talmud) front and back.
From what I have read, the only standard "page" of Talmud is the Vilna

printing, and that is the edition that was censored of all the Jesus
references.

TCross

[cindys]

Post by Terry Cross

Post by cindys
A *daf* is a page (of talmud) front and back.
From what I have read, the only standard "page" of Talmud is the Vilna

printing, and that is the edition that was censored of all the Jesus
references.

----------
?????
1. There are other girsos (versions) besides the Vilna printing, and one is
not more or less "standard" than the other.
2. There were never any Jesus references in any version of the talmud to
begin with. The Christians censored references to idolators which they
claimed were *code* words for Christians. Many modern versions of the Vilna
edition have restored the talmud to its original form.
3. This has all been explained to you before, but you will undoubtedly post
this same misinformation dozens more times in an effort to provoke.

Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Terry Cross]

Post by j***@hotmail.com

Post by Terry Cross

Post by cindys
A *daf* is a page (of talmud) front and back.
From what I have read, the only standard "page" of Talmud is the Vilna

printing, and that is the edition that was censored of all the Jesus
references.

----------
?????
1. There are other girsos (versions) besides the Vilna printing, and one is
not more or less "standard" than the other.
2. There were never any Jesus references in any version of the talmud to
begin with. The Christians censored references to idolators which they
claimed were *code* words for Christians. Many modern versions of the Vilna
edition have restored the talmud to its original form.
3. This has all been explained to you before, but you will undoubtedly post
this same misinformation dozens more times in an effort to provoke.

But some people who should know disagree with you on that subject,
Cindy. Why should I believe your word over theirs? I do not even know
who you are. For example, what about Steven Bayme, the American Jewish
Committee's national director of Contemporary Jewish Life? And what
about Eric J. Greenberg, staff writer at The Jewish Week, who quotes
him?

Fallout from Gibson's Passion
by Eric J. Greenberg, staff writer at The Jewish Week.
October 15, 2003

Timing is everything. An American Jewish Committee scholar who reviewed
Talmudic passages referring to Jesus Christ fell into the row
surrounding Mel Gibson's controversial film account of Christ's final
days. Eric J. Greenberg of the New York newspaper The Jewish Week
reports.

The controversy over Mel Gibson's upcoming film about the death of
Jesus has spurred painful exchanges between Jews and Christians and
progressive and traditional Catholics in recent days.

To date, the debates have centred on the "proper" interpretation of the
role of Jews in Jesus' Crucifixion, as presented in the four New
Testament Gospels. But this week, Gibson's $25 million biblical epic,
which the director insists is about love and forgiveness, has triggered
a new squabble - among Jewish scholars.

The texts in question are not New Testament but rather passages long
censored (by Christian authorities) about Jesus from the Talmud, the
encyclopaedia of Jewish law and tradition considered sacred by
traditional Jews.

Raising the issue is an article by Steven Bayme, the American Jewish
Committee's national director of Contemporary Jewish Life, which
declares that Jews must face up to the fact that the Talmudic narrative
"does clearly demonstrate ... fourth century rabbinic willingness to
take responsibility for the execution of Jesus."

"Jewish apologetics that 'we could not have done it' because of Roman
sovereignty ring hollow when one examines the Talmudic account," Bayme
said. He contends that Jewish interfaith representatives are not being
honest in dialogue if they ignore the explicit Talmudic references to
Jesus.

His article was posted on the AJC's Web site in late September, then
removed after a Jewish Week reporter's inquiry. Ken Bandler, a
spokesman for the AJC, said the article was taken down to "avoid
confusion" over whether it represented the organisation's official
position. AJC officials now refer to the article as "an internal
document."

Some Jewish scholars and interfaith officials were upset with the
article, either questioning Bayme's scholarship or his timing - saying
this was a particularly delicate time to call attention to Jews' role
in Jesus' death - or both. But Bayme was unswayed.

Citing the continuing controversy over Gibson's film The Passion, which
has reignited concern over Christianity's ancient charge against Jews
as "Christ killers," he wrote that it is also important "that Jews
confront their own tradition and ask how Jewish sources treated the
Jesus narrative."

Bayme cites a passage from the Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a, which relates the
fate of a man called Jesus who is hanged on the eve of Passover for
practicing sorcery and leading the people of Israel astray. When no one
comes forward to defend the accused sorcerer during a 40-day reprieve,
Jewish authorities put him to death, despite Jesus' "connections with
the government."

The Talmud cites this incident during a discussion of due process and
capital punishment in Jewish law. Bayme acknowledges that that the
passage was written by Talmudic scholars in Babylon, who lived about
400 years after Jesus. "To be sure, historians cannot accept such a
text uncritically," Bayme wrote.

But he says the passage is significant because the Talmudic text
"indicates rabbinic willingness to acknowledge, at least in principle,
that in a Jewish court and in a Jewish land, a real-life Jesus would
indeed have been executed. "No effort is made to pin his death upon the
Romans," Bayme said.

"Pointedly, Jews did not argue that crucifixion was a Roman punishment
and therefore, no Jewish court could have advocated it." Bayme told The
Jewish Week he wrote the piece for two reasons: to educate Jews and
promote honest dialogue with Christians.

He cited the Catholic Church's 1965 statement that Jesus' death "cannot
be blamed upon all Jews then living, without distinction, nor upon the
Jews of today." Bayme said Gibson's movie "has alienated many Jewish
leaders who correctly worry whether the movie's graphic description of
the Crucifixion and its alleged overtones of a Jewish conspiracy to
kill Jesus may ignite long-dormant Christian hostilities to Jews."

That's why the Gospel and its association with anti-Semitism need to be
confronted as well as Jewish sources, he said. But Bayme stressed that
he is not suggesting a moral equivalency between problematic
anti-Semitic Gospel passages "which have caused the death of Jews" and
the Talmudic Jesus references.

Indeed, the Catholic Church, which burned copies of the Talmud in the
Middle Ages, officially censored the Talmud's Jesus references in the
13th century. Even today the standard Vilna edition of the Talmud omits
any discussion about "Yeshu," Jesus in Hebrew. The Jesus omissions
began to be restored in the last century, Bayme said.

And the passages "are now included in most of the new printings of the
Talmud," said Yisrael Shaw of Daf Yomi Discussions, an on-line Talmud
service. "If you do an Internet search for Sanhedrin 43a, you will find
that it is one of the favourite sources of the Christians to use as
proof of the Jewish murder and hatred of their god," Shaw said.

But Bayme is concerned that Jews know nothing about the censored texts.
"Whenever I talked about the origins of Christianity with fellow Jews,
I discovered massive ignorance of Jewish narratives concerning the
death of Jesus. It's something I thought Jews ought to confront
fairly," he said.

Bayme contends the Talmudic text resonates with the Gospel accounts for
several reasons. He said the Talmudic charge of practicing sorcery and
seducing Israel into apostasy, a biblical capital crime, matches
recently discovered "hidden Gospels" that "a historical Jesus was
indeed a first century sorcerer."

"A mature relationship between two faiths should allow for each faith
to ... uncover these texts and view them critically," Bayme said. But
some disagreed with Bayme's analysis and policy suggestion. His own
organisation pulled the piece only a couple of days after it was
posted.

Rabbi David Rosen, the group's director of inter-religious affairs,
said Bayme's views were not the "official AJC position" concerning the
trial of Jesus. He called the Talmudic text historically "dubious" and
questioned Bayme's connecting the text with the Gospel stories, noting
the actual charge against Jesus and the nature of the court "is in
conflict."

Some outside specialists also refuted Bayme's article. Brooklyn College
History Professor Rabbi David Berger, a specialist in Christian-Jewish
issues, said it would be a mistake and diversion to bring the Talmudic
texts into the interfaith dialogue.

"The Second Vatican council properly rejected collective Jewish guilt
for the Crucifixion, even though it affirmed that some Jews were
involved," he said. "Consequently, raising the question of the
historical involvement of Jews, with or without reference to Talmudic
texts, diverts us from the key issue, which is the denial of
contemporary Jewish culpability for these events."

He noted that in the Middle Ages, "most Jews assumed that Jews executed
Jesus of Nazareth based on these Talmudic passages, though some
asserted that the Jesus of Talmud is not the same as the Jesus of
Christianity." Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz, whose Talmud edition has been
translated into English, Russian and Spanish, said he believed the
Talmudic Jesus is probably not the Christian Jesus.

"It could very well be somebody else" who lived 100 or 200 years
earlier because the stories don't match the Gospel account, he said.
Rabbi Steinsaltz noted that the Hebrew name Yeshu was popular back then
and that "stories about the resurrection of dead leaders are a dime a
dozen, before Jesus and after him. This is not a historical issue."

In any case, Rabbi Steinsaltz said Christians would do best to avoid
these texts because there is nothing politically or theologically
significant to them in Jewish tradition. Ellis Rivkin, professor
emeritus of Jewish history at Hebrew Union College and author of the
seminal book What Crucified Jesus, said dragging in the Talmud text is
"dangerous, utterly meaningless and irrelevant."

But Dr. David Kraemer, professor of Talmud and rabbinics at the Jewish
Theological Seminary, supported Bayme's call for honesty about Jewish
texts and Jesus. "I think it's very relevant to bring up evidence of
the difficulty of our relationship with Christianity," he said,
contending that it is indeed Jesus of Nazareth in the text.

Kraemer believes the text was written at a time of fierce competition
between the early rabbis and Christian leaders in the early centuries
of the Common Era. "The attitudes expressed (in the Talmud) can be
pretty hateful attitudes," he said. "It's not about comparing them
(with the anti-Semitic Gospel passages). Just because you can't equate
them doesn't mean you can't raise the issues."

Eric J. Greenberg is a staff writer at The Jewish Week.

[j***@hotmail.com]

Post by j***@hotmail.com

Post by Terry Cross

Post by cindys
A *daf* is a page (of talmud) front and back.
From what I have read, the only standard "page" of Talmud is the Vilna

printing, and that is the edition that was censored of all the Jesus
references.

----------
?????
1. There are other girsos (versions) besides the Vilna printing, and one is
not more or less "standard" than the other.

==========

Even Cindy is not this stupid, so we must assume that she is being
dishonest.

The first quote below is from e-daf.com, the Web site that Cindy
challenged me to use last year (and which I did indeed use).


------------begin quote----------

E-Daf in the Press

Complete Talmud now available on-line

As Seen in

The Jerusalem Post
Date 11/26/2002
Author Michael Freund

For the first time, the entire text of the Babylonian Talmud as it
appears in the standard Vilna edition is now available on-line at a
website called E-Daf (http://e-daf.com/). The site, conceived by Rabbi
Dovid Kraus, contains all 2,711 pages of the Talmud, which are laid out
using precisely the same format as printed versions of the text (known
in Hebrew as Tzurat HaDaf).

...

- quoted from
http://www.e-daf.com/DisplayPress.asp?ID=1


------------begin quote----------

IMPLICATIONS OF ACADEMIC APPROACHES TO THE STUDY OF THE BABYLONIAN
TALMUD FOR THE BELIEFS AND RELIGIOUS ATTITUDES OF THE STUDENT

Pinchas Hayman

Post by j***@hotmail.com
From Abiding Challenges: Research Perspectives on Jewish Education

Edited by Yisrael Rich and Michael Rosenak

...

5. The Vilna edition of the Talmud[14]
is the authoritative and accepted printing of the edition of Rav Ashi
and Rabina, and the very layout of the Vilna page has sanctity as an
expression of Divine Providence.[15] Alternative printings of the
text can be considered, at most, as learning aids for initial
preparation before the actual learning to be done in the Vilna text.
...
[14] The Vilna edition was published in 1880-1886 in the famous Widow
and Romm Brothers publishing house.

[15] See note 46 below.

...

[46] It is customary in the yeshivot to see the printed text as an
expression of Divine Providence in the preservation and distribution of
the texts. The concept of "tzurat hadaf", or the sanctity of
"the format of the Vilna page" has become an ideological war cry of
many yeshivot against the use of the Steinsaltz edition. The Mesorah
Press "Art Scroll" English translation edition of the Talmud,
recently translated into Hebrew (!) and printed alongside the Vilna
page, is the response of this community to the Steinsaltz edition.

...

- quoted from
http://www.lookstein.org/articles/implications.htm#_edn15

------------begin quote----------

World Union of Jewish Students

...

The layout of the Talmud page that we have today was established
approximately five hundred years ago. As new editions of the Talmud
were printed, extra reference tools and commentaries were added, until
the standard Vilna edition from around 100 years ago was printed.

- quoted from
http://www.wujs.org.il/activist/learning/guide/page.shtml

------------begin quote----------

Torah Aura Productions

...

The standard edition of the TALMUD today, the one that almost all
editions of the SHaS use for their Hebrew text, is the Widow and
Brothers Romm, Vilna Edition (1880-1886). We use photo images of their
typesetting, because their original plates were destroyed in the
Holocaust.

...

- quoted from
http://www.torahaura.com/Corporate/TAPBB/TAPBB_Volume_10/TAPBB_Vol_10__Num_14/tapbb_vol_10__num_14.html

------------begin quote----------

Harvard Law School

Food & Religious Law

...

This set of the Babylonian Talmud, printed in Vilna between the years
1927-1932, is one of the last complete sets of the Talmud to be printed
in Europe before the outbreak of the Second World War. It was printed
by the Widow and Brothers Romm, who were widely known for their quality
editions of Jewish classical texts. The "Vilna Shas," as this edition
was called, became a standard and continues to be photographically
reproduced in the United States and abroad.

...

- quoted from
http://www.law.harvard.edu/library/collections/special/publications/food/food8.php

------------end quote----------

[Patricia Heil]

Hey Morris, try listening to the audio and hearing what it really says

[j***@hotmail.com]

Post by Patricia Heil
try listening to the audio and hearing what it really says

=======

My iMac computer can make the rabbis speak in an outer space alien
robot "Trinoids" voice that is *so* cool.

[MR NETANEL GUBBAY]

Please can you subscribe me