Discussion:
"Y'hoshua" > "Yeshua"
(too old to reply)
Shmuel Playfair
2005-10-14 00:14:05 UTC
Permalink
[Hillel M]
Since y'shu was never a Hebrew name (unless you believe
it is formed from the initial letters of the technical term for
a traitor) the question has no meaning.
[John N]
Eh? It's in Tana"kh.
[Shmuel] You must be referring to "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) found
in the TaNaHk. It is my understanding that "Yeshu" (Josh) is
a shortening of the Aramaic version of the name "Yeshua" (Joshua).

[John N]
Ezra 2:2
[Shmuel] So, you were referring to the name "Yeshua" which
is the Aramaic version of the Hebrew name, "Y'hoshua".
Thanks for the reference.

[John N]
Since the surrounding text is Hebrew, aren't you assuming what
you are trying to prove by saying it is the Aramaic equivalent?
[Shmuel] Aramaic loan words are often used in later Hebrew texts.
For example, the Aramaic equivalent of the Hebrew word "ben" (son)
is found in later Hebrew speech as we find with "bar[-mitzvah]".

[Alwyn]
This is correct.
____

[Shmuel continued]
Actually, I was repeating an assertion (I heard years ago) that
"Yeshua" was the Aramaic version of the Hebrew name "Y'hoshua".
I was not attempting to prove it.

It is interesting to note (according to the "Hebrew and English
Lexicon of the Old Testament" AKA B.D.B.) that the later version of
the name, "Yeshua", was 1) the name of head of one of the classes of
priests [cf. 1 Ch. 24.11]; 2) a Levitical family-name of frequent
ocurrence [cf. Ezr. 2.40; 3.9 = Ne 7.43; 8.7; 9.4/5; 10.10; 12.8 and
2 Chr. 31.15; Ezr 8.33; Ne 12.24]; 3) a father of a builder at the
wall [cf. Ne 3.19]; 4) a Judaite family name [cf. Ezr 2.6 = Ne
7.11]; and 5) the name of a location in the south of Judah [cf Ne
11.26]. Also, one should consider that the name "Yeshua" is used
exclusively in the latest Biblical Hebrew texts and never in the
earlier ones.

[Alwyn]
That does not make 'Yeshua' Aramaic. More relevant in my opinion is
the fact that the Hebrew 'Yehoshua' starts with the first two
letters of the Sacred Name; dropping the 'h' made the connection
with the Divine Name less apparent. As time went on, use of the
Sacred name became more and more restricted.
[Shmuel] What is the Aramaic version or equivalent for
the Hebrew name, Y'hoshua (Joshua)?

[Alwyn]
You find the name only once in an Aramaic passage in the Bible, and
that is in Ezra 5:2. As I mentioned in an earlier posting, the
letters are the same, but the pointing is different in the
Masoretic text.
[Shmuel] In Ezra 5.2 we find that the Aramaic version of the name
is "Yeshua". And the vowel pointing of this name in Ezra 5.2 is
exactly the same as the pointing of the name found in the Hebrew
portions of Ezra [cf. 2.2,6,40; 3.9; 8.35].
íééç
2005-10-14 01:22:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Hillel M]
Since y'shu was never a Hebrew name (unless you believe
it is formed from the initial letters of the technical term for
a traitor) the question has no meaning.
[John N]
Eh? It's in Tana"kh.
[Shmuel] You must be referring to "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) found
in the TaNaHk. It is my understanding that "Yeshu" (Josh) is
a shortening of the Aramaic version of the name "Yeshua" (Joshua).
[John N]
Ezra 2:2
[Shmuel] So, you were referring to the name "Yeshua" which
is the Aramaic version of the Hebrew name, "Y'hoshua".
Thanks for the reference.
[John N]
Since the surrounding text is Hebrew, aren't you assuming what
you are trying to prove by saying it is the Aramaic equivalent?
[Shmuel] Aramaic loan words are often used in later Hebrew texts.
For example, the Aramaic equivalent of the Hebrew word "ben" (son)
is found in later Hebrew speech as we find with "bar[-mitzvah]".
[Alwyn]
This is correct.
____
[Shmuel continued]
Actually, I was repeating an assertion (I heard years ago) that
"Yeshua" was the Aramaic version of the Hebrew name "Y'hoshua".
I was not attempting to prove it.
It is interesting to note (according to the "Hebrew and English
Lexicon of the Old Testament" AKA B.D.B.) that the later version of
the name, "Yeshua", was 1) the name of head of one of the classes of
priests [cf. 1 Ch. 24.11]; 2) a Levitical family-name of frequent
ocurrence [cf. Ezr. 2.40; 3.9 = Ne 7.43; 8.7; 9.4/5; 10.10; 12.8 and
2 Chr. 31.15; Ezr 8.33; Ne 12.24]; 3) a father of a builder at the
wall [cf. Ne 3.19]; 4) a Judaite family name [cf. Ezr 2.6 = Ne
7.11]; and 5) the name of a location in the south of Judah [cf Ne
11.26]. Also, one should consider that the name "Yeshua" is used
exclusively in the latest Biblical Hebrew texts and never in the
earlier ones.
[Alwyn]
That does not make 'Yeshua' Aramaic. More relevant in my opinion is
the fact that the Hebrew 'Yehoshua' starts with the first two
letters of the Sacred Name; dropping the 'h' made the connection
with the Divine Name less apparent. As time went on, use of the
Sacred name became more and more restricted.
[Shmuel] What is the Aramaic version or equivalent for
the Hebrew name, Y'hoshua (Joshua)?
[Alwyn]
You find the name only once in an Aramaic passage in the Bible, and
that is in Ezra 5:2. As I mentioned in an earlier posting, the
letters are the same, but the pointing is different in the
Masoretic text.
[Shmuel] In Ezra 5.2 we find that the Aramaic version of the name
is "Yeshua". And the vowel pointing of this name in Ezra 5.2 is
exactly the same as the pointing of the name found in the Hebrew
portions of Ezra [cf. 2.2,6,40; 3.9; 8.35].
Yeshua is the Aramaic for Yashua aka Yahoshua.

that's a fact. not an opinion :)
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]
2005-10-14 08:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Scott / ieec, wrote:
_
Post by íééç
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Shmuel continued]
Actually, I was repeating an assertion (I heard years ago) that
"Yeshua" was the Aramaic version of the Hebrew name "Y'hoshua".
I was not attempting to prove it.
It is interesting to note (according to the "Hebrew and English
Lexicon of the Old Testament" AKA B.D.B.) that the later version of
the name, "Yeshua", was 1) the name of head of one of the classes of
priests [cf. 1 Ch. 24.11]; 2) a Levitical family-name of frequent
ocurrence [cf. Ezr. 2.40; 3.9 = Ne 7.43; 8.7; 9.4/5; 10.10; 12.8 and
2 Chr. 31.15; Ezr 8.33; Ne 12.24]; 3) a father of a builder at the
wall [cf. Ne 3.19]; 4) a Judaite family name [cf. Ezr 2.6 = Ne
7.11]; and 5) the name of a location in the south of Judah [cf Ne
11.26]. Also, one should consider that the name "Yeshua" is used
exclusively in the latest Biblical Hebrew texts and never in the
earlier ones.
[Alwyn]
That does not make 'Yeshua' Aramaic. More relevant in my opinion is
the fact that the Hebrew 'Yehoshua' starts with the first two
letters of the Sacred Name; dropping the 'h' made the connection
with the Divine Name less apparent. As time went on, use of the
Sacred
[Alwyn]
You find the name only once in an Aramaic passage in the Bible, and
that is in Ezra 5:2. As I mentioned in an earlier posting, the
letters are the same, but the pointing is different in the
Masoretic text.
[Shmuel] In Ezra 5.2 we find that the Aramaic version of the name
is "Yeshua". And the vowel pointing of this name in Ezra 5.2 is
Yeshua is the Aramaic for Yashua aka Yahoshua.
that's a fact. not an opinion :)
seems more like confusion on your part once again related to ancient
languages as opposed to modern langauges.

as far as i recall the Aramaic version truncates the final and is
`Eshu` or `Ishu`.

a minor observation, even trivial,
but it shows that you are an average, perhaps even below average
student of the texts and your deity you imply who has employed you as a
prophet should give you a lengthy thrashing.

shalom
íééç
2005-10-14 21:09:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]
_
Post by íééç
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Shmuel continued]
Actually, I was repeating an assertion (I heard years ago) that
"Yeshua" was the Aramaic version of the Hebrew name "Y'hoshua".
I was not attempting to prove it.
It is interesting to note (according to the "Hebrew and English
Lexicon of the Old Testament" AKA B.D.B.) that the later version of
the name, "Yeshua", was 1) the name of head of one of the classes of
priests [cf. 1 Ch. 24.11]; 2) a Levitical family-name of frequent
ocurrence [cf. Ezr. 2.40; 3.9 = Ne 7.43; 8.7; 9.4/5; 10.10; 12.8 and
2 Chr. 31.15; Ezr 8.33; Ne 12.24]; 3) a father of a builder at the
wall [cf. Ne 3.19]; 4) a Judaite family name [cf. Ezr 2.6 = Ne
7.11]; and 5) the name of a location in the south of Judah [cf Ne
11.26]. Also, one should consider that the name "Yeshua" is used
exclusively in the latest Biblical Hebrew texts and never in the
earlier ones.
[Alwyn]
That does not make 'Yeshua' Aramaic. More relevant in my opinion is
the fact that the Hebrew 'Yehoshua' starts with the first two
letters of the Sacred Name; dropping the 'h' made the connection
with the Divine Name less apparent. As time went on, use of the
Sacred
[Alwyn]
You find the name only once in an Aramaic passage in the Bible, and
that is in Ezra 5:2. As I mentioned in an earlier posting, the
letters are the same, but the pointing is different in the
Masoretic text.
[Shmuel] In Ezra 5.2 we find that the Aramaic version of the name
is "Yeshua". And the vowel pointing of this name in Ezra 5.2 is
Yeshua is the Aramaic for Yashua aka Yahoshua.
that's a fact. not an opinion :)
seems more like confusion on your part once again related to ancient
languages as opposed to modern langauges.
as far as i recall the Aramaic version truncates the final and is
`Eshu` or `Ishu`.
a minor observation, even trivial,
but it shows that you are an average, perhaps even below average
student of the texts and your deity you imply who has employed you as a
prophet should give you a lengthy thrashing.
shalom
The Hebrew anounciation truncates the same way as far as the "Yud" but only
annunciation, and that's debatable. Only the Aramaic would give an "E"
annunciation if it does at all.


????????

"Y-eishua" << there you are close, a but more real Knowledge of Hebrew on
your part, you would not truncate the Patach Ayin, and EISHUA not Eshu
or Ishu

Hebrew is;

??????????

Yhowshua



Hebrew is Yud Hay wav shin ayin

Aramaic is Yud Shin Wav (Shoorook) ayin

The Nikud is the same, there is no truncation because of the vowel Patach
Ayin

Hebrew =Shua

Aramaic = Swhua



Hebrew = Yahoshua or Ya HO Shua

Aramaic= Y'eishua or Ya heh shua





Same exact word, only a different dialect/language

Please stop claiming things you do not know about.

Pseudo Intellectualism does not equate to "knowledge"



and please, actually read my posts before answering them and making phony
observations. I do not have a belief in "Deity" Deity is a pagan concept. I
believe in Mighty one, THE POWER of all life.



If you have read my posts before, you would know that.
íééç
2005-10-14 21:37:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by íééç
Post by Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]
_
Post by íééç
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Shmuel continued]
Actually, I was repeating an assertion (I heard years ago) that
"Yeshua" was the Aramaic version of the Hebrew name "Y'hoshua".
I was not attempting to prove it.
It is interesting to note (according to the "Hebrew and English
Lexicon of the Old Testament" AKA B.D.B.) that the later version of
the name, "Yeshua", was 1) the name of head of one of the classes of
priests [cf. 1 Ch. 24.11]; 2) a Levitical family-name of frequent
ocurrence [cf. Ezr. 2.40; 3.9 = Ne 7.43; 8.7; 9.4/5; 10.10; 12.8 and
2 Chr. 31.15; Ezr 8.33; Ne 12.24]; 3) a father of a builder at the
wall [cf. Ne 3.19]; 4) a Judaite family name [cf. Ezr 2.6 = Ne
7.11]; and 5) the name of a location in the south of Judah [cf Ne
11.26]. Also, one should consider that the name "Yeshua" is used
exclusively in the latest Biblical Hebrew texts and never in the
earlier ones.
[Alwyn]
That does not make 'Yeshua' Aramaic. More relevant in my opinion is
the fact that the Hebrew 'Yehoshua' starts with the first two
letters of the Sacred Name; dropping the 'h' made the connection
with the Divine Name less apparent. As time went on, use of the
Sacred
[Alwyn]
You find the name only once in an Aramaic passage in the Bible, and
that is in Ezra 5:2. As I mentioned in an earlier posting, the
letters are the same, but the pointing is different in the
Masoretic text.
[Shmuel] In Ezra 5.2 we find that the Aramaic version of the name
is "Yeshua". And the vowel pointing of this name in Ezra 5.2 is
Yeshua is the Aramaic for Yashua aka Yahoshua.
that's a fact. not an opinion :)
seems more like confusion on your part once again related to ancient
languages as opposed to modern langauges.
as far as i recall the Aramaic version truncates the final and is
`Eshu` or `Ishu`.
a minor observation, even trivial,
but it shows that you are an average, perhaps even below average
student of the texts and your deity you imply who has employed you as a
prophet should give you a lengthy thrashing.
shalom
The Hebrew anounciation truncates the same way as far as the "Yud" but
only annunciation, and that's debatable. Only the Aramaic would give an
"E" annunciation if it does at all.
????????
"Y-eishua" << there you are close, a but more real Knowledge of Hebrew on
your part, you would not truncate the Patach Ayin, and EISHUA not Eshu
or Ishu
Hebrew is;
??????????
Yhowshua
Hebrew is Yud Hay wav shin ayin
Aramaic is Yud Shin Wav (Shoorook) ayin
The Nikud is the same, there is no truncation because of the vowel Patach
Ayin
Hebrew =Shua
Aramaic = Swhua
Hebrew = Yahoshua or Ya HO Shua
Aramaic= Y'eishua or Ya heh shua
Same exact word, only a different dialect/language
Please stop claiming things you do not know about.
Pseudo Intellectualism does not equate to "knowledge"
and please, actually read my posts before answering them and making phony
observations. I do not have a belief in "Deity" Deity is a pagan concept.
I believe in Mighty one, THE POWER of all life.
If you have read my posts before, you would know that.
This time the Hebrew did not come out correctly.
I listed the Hebrew letters in English anyways.

My point is with you basically, and why I get on you, is because you are
intent on some sort of Pseudo Intellect, but in actually basic knowledge, I
feel as if I am speaking with a wall.

most of your posts are out of context, always adding in the " you can
search Tenak for Jesus all day long" when the posts of mine you answer,
that's not even the topic of discussion.

You do not "Listen" to see what I am saying, then you go off on how people
give red herrings, that which you do continually all day long.

It is not about me or anyone else "failing to show you" anything. the
failure is on you mainly because you do not actually read and understand
what others are saying, let alone try to. That is evident from your
continual "Jesus is not in Tenak" and other out of context specific remarks,
where people are not trying to prove Jesus in The Tenak.

Note, I do not say that to fact checker. He actually reads posts.

However with you, there is a clear bias and chip on the shoulder.

your last post is a perfect example.

"your deity is watching" as if I hold the same beliefs as the general
Christendom, in which several times I flatly reject that type of thinking.

You seem to miss that.

you want respect from others in consideration, you do the same you will get
it.

Advice = dump the "BIG words" in English. The ability to have an extended
English vocabulary does not equate to understanding or knowledge of Hebrew
scripture, which in itself does not rely upon heavy Pseudo intellect, nor
does it require one have an extensive vocabulary of English.

In other words, please climb off your high "vocabulary" horse and speak in a
more common English and stop having a "look down at others" attitude here.

I notice a compensation with you in this, as if your ability to know "Bar
exam type English" makes you "smarter" it does not. Only makes you more
PUFFED UP in your own self.

My ability to know Hebrew I count for nothing, because the English basically
does in fact represent the basic idea, and that basic idea is to FOLLOW GOD.

Which is why I will not engage in with those who hold a Trinitarian belief
as being "bad people unsaved"

It is likely many of them who hold to that are indeed "saved"

My only point of contention with any of them is when they would require that
belief to be "saved"

Now I know these concepts are foreign to you, and right now you are most
likely on the " well this is all irrelevant, because there is no Jesus in
Tenak"

So start a post that says "There is no Jesus in Tenak" and stop adding that
into nearly every topic post you answer on, which almost always is not set
to prove or disprove your "battle cry" Now if you think we have the wrong
premise to begin with, which is obviously why you say what you say, why
answer at all?

Again, start a post and explain why the premise is wrong.

Then I will, and I am sure others, will not "sermonize" to you, and if you
care, I will give you respect, but you show a clear bias each time you
interject "There is no Jesus in Tenak" where that comments is out of context
to the specific post.

In other words, stick on context, answering the posts imply you accept the
premise. AGAIN, If you do not accept the premise, then simply ignore the
posts and start one that explains the "wrong premise"

Please do not say " you are in manic phase" as an excuse for not being able
to understand what I am saying, and I will not "sermonize" to you as you
say.

If you think I am Irrelevant, fine, there are 7 billion people on this
planet and in context, I AM IRRELEVANT!! so are YOU!!
f***@hotmail.com
2005-10-14 23:06:43 UTC
Permalink
íééç wrote:
...
Post by íééç
Note, I do not say that to fact checker. He actually reads posts.
=======

Better read than dead.

[I don't understand it but it sure sounded clever at the time]
f***@hotmail.com
2005-10-14 23:06:47 UTC
Permalink
íééç wrote:
...
Post by íééç
Note, I do not say that to fact checker. He actually reads posts.
=======

Better read than dead.

[I don't understand it but it sure sounded clever at the time]
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]
2005-10-16 13:03:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by íééç
So start a post that says "There is no Jesus in Tenak"
There is no Jesus character in the TaNaKh
Post by íééç
Please do not say " you are in manic phase"
No i am sorry you are definitely in manic phase
f***@hotmail.com
2005-10-14 03:18:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Hillel M]
Since y'shu was never a Hebrew name (unless you believe
it is formed from the initial letters of the technical term for
a traitor) the question has no meaning.
[John N]
Eh? It's in Tana"kh.
[Shmuel] You must be referring to "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) found
in the TaNaHk. It is my understanding that "Yeshu" (Josh) is
a shortening of the Aramaic version of the name "Yeshua" (Joshua).
======

When followers of Judaism call Jesus "Yeshu" they are *insulting* him:

-------begin quote---------

That is why Orthodox Jews still refer to Him not as Y'shua but as
YESHU, an acronym standing for the Hebrew words, "May his name be
blotted out."

- quoted from
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/havurah/mm92_07/knocks

-------begin quote---------


Pirkei Avot


by Rabbi Moshe Bogomilsky


... "Yeshu," which is an acronym for yemach shemo vezichro - may his
name and memory be erased...

- quoted from
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/vedibarta-bam/avot-1.htm

-------begin quote---------

The Laws Against Non-Jews

Chapter 5

from

Jewish History, Jewish Religion

by

Israel Shahak

...

70. The Hebrew form of the name Jesus-Yeshu-was interpreted as an
acronym for the curse may his name and memory be wiped out," which is
used as an extreme form of abuse. In fact, anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews
(such as Neturey Qarta) sometimes refer to Herzl as "Herzl Jesus" and I
have found in religious Zionist writings expressions such as "Nasser
Jesus" and more recently "Arafat Jesus."

- quoted from
http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/jewish_history_5.html

- also at
http://www.abbc.net/historia/shahak/english.htm

-------end quote---------
íééç
2005-10-14 03:47:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Hillel M]
Since y'shu was never a Hebrew name (unless you believe
it is formed from the initial letters of the technical term for
a traitor) the question has no meaning.
[John N]
Eh? It's in Tana"kh.
[Shmuel] You must be referring to "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) found
in the TaNaHk. It is my understanding that "Yeshu" (Josh) is
a shortening of the Aramaic version of the name "Yeshua" (Joshua).
======
-------begin quote---------
That is why Orthodox Jews still refer to Him not as Y'shua but as
YESHU, an acronym standing for the Hebrew words, "May his name be
blotted out."
- quoted from
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/havurah/mm92_07/knocks
-------begin quote---------
Pirkei Avot
by Rabbi Moshe Bogomilsky
... "Yeshu," which is an acronym for yemach shemo vezichro - may his
name and memory be erased...
- quoted from
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/vedibarta-bam/avot-1.htm
-------begin quote---------
The Laws Against Non-Jews
Chapter 5
from
Jewish History, Jewish Religion
by
Israel Shahak
...
70. The Hebrew form of the name Jesus-Yeshu-was interpreted as an
acronym for the curse may his name and memory be wiped out," which is
used as an extreme form of abuse. In fact, anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews
(such as Neturey Qarta) sometimes refer to Herzl as "Herzl Jesus" and I
have found in religious Zionist writings expressions such as "Nasser
Jesus" and more recently "Arafat Jesus."
- quoted from
http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/jewish_history_5.html
- also at
http://www.abbc.net/historia/shahak/english.htm
-------end quote---------
"That is why Orthodox Jews still refer to Him not as Y'shua but as
YESHU, an acronym standing for the Hebrew words, "May his name be
blotted out."


the above is generally correct, however, I personally know several that
call him "Yeshua". Also The Rambam, Mamonides called him by his given name
of "Yeshua"
f***@hotmail.com
2005-10-14 04:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by íééç
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Hillel M]
Since y'shu was never a Hebrew name (unless you believe
it is formed from the initial letters of the technical term for
a traitor) the question has no meaning.
[John N]
Eh? It's in Tana"kh.
[Shmuel] You must be referring to "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) found
in the TaNaHk. It is my understanding that "Yeshu" (Josh) is
a shortening of the Aramaic version of the name "Yeshua" (Joshua).
======
-------begin quote---------
That is why Orthodox Jews still refer to Him not as Y'shua but as
YESHU, an acronym standing for the Hebrew words, "May his name be
blotted out."
- quoted from
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/havurah/mm92_07/knocks
-------begin quote---------
Pirkei Avot
by Rabbi Moshe Bogomilsky
... "Yeshu," which is an acronym for yemach shemo vezichro - may his
name and memory be erased...
- quoted from
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/vedibarta-bam/avot-1.htm
-------begin quote---------
The Laws Against Non-Jews
Chapter 5
from
Jewish History, Jewish Religion
by
Israel Shahak
...
70. The Hebrew form of the name Jesus-Yeshu-was interpreted as an
acronym for the curse may his name and memory be wiped out," which is
used as an extreme form of abuse. In fact, anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews
(such as Neturey Qarta) sometimes refer to Herzl as "Herzl Jesus" and I
have found in religious Zionist writings expressions such as "Nasser
Jesus" and more recently "Arafat Jesus."
- quoted from
http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/jewish_history_5.html
- also at
http://www.abbc.net/historia/shahak/english.htm
-------end quote---------
"That is why Orthodox Jews still refer to Him not as Y'shua but as
YESHU, an acronym standing for the Hebrew words, "May his name be
blotted out."
===========
Post by íééç
the above is generally correct, however, I personally know several that
call him "Yeshua". Also The Rambam, Mamonides called him by his given name
of "Yeshua"
============

--------begin quote---------

As Rambam states at the very end of his Code of Law (Hilchos Melachim
11:4 uncensored version): "Man does not have the power to grasp the
thoughts of the Creator of the Universe. For our ways are not His ways,
nor are our thoughts His. All that happened in the wake of Yeshu of
Nazereth and that Ishmaelite who arose after him came only to
straighten the way for Melech HaMashiach and to rectify the entire
world to serve HaShem together.

- quoted from
http://azamra.org/Universal/YISRO.htm

------------begin quote------------

First of all, the rejection of Yeshu HaNotzri, as the Rambam calls
him...

- quoted from
http://www.beismoshiach.org/Moshiach/moshiach354.htm

------------begin quote------------

"all of these things about Yeshu the notri (xtian) and of that
Yishmaelite... they are only for the sake of paving the way for the
King Messiah and to rectify the entire world etc."

- quoted from
http://www.moshiach.ca/gpage.html10.html

------------end quote------------
íééç
2005-10-14 04:49:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by íééç
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Hillel M]
Since y'shu was never a Hebrew name (unless you believe
it is formed from the initial letters of the technical term for
a traitor) the question has no meaning.
[John N]
Eh? It's in Tana"kh.
[Shmuel] You must be referring to "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) found
in the TaNaHk. It is my understanding that "Yeshu" (Josh) is
a shortening of the Aramaic version of the name "Yeshua" (Joshua).
======
-------begin quote---------
That is why Orthodox Jews still refer to Him not as Y'shua but as
YESHU, an acronym standing for the Hebrew words, "May his name be
blotted out."
- quoted from
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/havurah/mm92_07/knocks
-------begin quote---------
Pirkei Avot
by Rabbi Moshe Bogomilsky
... "Yeshu," which is an acronym for yemach shemo vezichro - may his
name and memory be erased...
- quoted from
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/vedibarta-bam/avot-1.htm
-------begin quote---------
The Laws Against Non-Jews
Chapter 5
from
Jewish History, Jewish Religion
by
Israel Shahak
...
70. The Hebrew form of the name Jesus-Yeshu-was interpreted as an
acronym for the curse may his name and memory be wiped out," which is
used as an extreme form of abuse. In fact, anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews
(such as Neturey Qarta) sometimes refer to Herzl as "Herzl Jesus" and I
have found in religious Zionist writings expressions such as "Nasser
Jesus" and more recently "Arafat Jesus."
- quoted from
http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/jewish_history_5.html
- also at
http://www.abbc.net/historia/shahak/english.htm
-------end quote---------
"That is why Orthodox Jews still refer to Him not as Y'shua but as
YESHU, an acronym standing for the Hebrew words, "May his name be
blotted out."
===========
Post by íééç
the above is generally correct, however, I personally know several that
call him "Yeshua". Also The Rambam, Mamonides called him by his given name
of "Yeshua"
============

--------begin quote---------

As Rambam states at the very end of his Code of Law (Hilchos Melachim
11:4 uncensored version): "Man does not have the power to grasp the
thoughts of the Creator of the Universe. For our ways are not His ways,
nor are our thoughts His. All that happened in the wake of Yeshu of
Nazereth and that Ishmaelite who arose after him came only to
straighten the way for Melech HaMashiach and to rectify the entire
world to serve HaShem together.

- quoted from
http://azamra.org/Universal/YISRO.htm

------------begin quote------------

First of all, the rejection of Yeshu HaNotzri, as the Rambam calls
him...

- quoted from
http://www.beismoshiach.org/Moshiach/moshiach354.htm

------------begin quote------------

"all of these things about Yeshu the notri (xtian) and of that
Yishmaelite... they are only for the sake of paving the way for the
King Messiah and to rectify the entire world etc."

- quoted from
http://www.moshiach.ca/gpage.html10.html

------------end quote------------


well goes to show you as a Jew, knowing a tad of Hebrew on your part would
go a long ways :)

In Hebrew Mamonides wrote says;
òåùåäé

all of these things about Yeshu the notri (xtian) and of that

no that's "Notzri" not "Notri"

did you typo that?

you are reading the English translation from a site with a bias to
translate "Yeshu"

Get me the source Hebrew that says;

åùåäé
f***@hotmail.com
2005-10-14 23:11:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by íééç
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Hillel M]
Since y'shu was never a Hebrew name (unless you believe
it is formed from the initial letters of the technical term for
a traitor) the question has no meaning.
[John N]
Eh? It's in Tana"kh.
[Shmuel] You must be referring to "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) found
in the TaNaHk. It is my understanding that "Yeshu" (Josh) is
a shortening of the Aramaic version of the name "Yeshua" (Joshua).
======
-------begin quote---------
That is why Orthodox Jews still refer to Him not as Y'shua but as
YESHU, an acronym standing for the Hebrew words, "May his name be
blotted out."
- quoted from
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/havurah/mm92_07/knocks
-------begin quote---------
Pirkei Avot
by Rabbi Moshe Bogomilsky
... "Yeshu," which is an acronym for yemach shemo vezichro - may his
name and memory be erased...
- quoted from
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/vedibarta-bam/avot-1.htm
-------begin quote---------
The Laws Against Non-Jews
Chapter 5
from
Jewish History, Jewish Religion
by
Israel Shahak
...
70. The Hebrew form of the name Jesus-Yeshu-was interpreted as an
acronym for the curse may his name and memory be wiped out," which is
used as an extreme form of abuse. In fact, anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews
(such as Neturey Qarta) sometimes refer to Herzl as "Herzl Jesus" and I
have found in religious Zionist writings expressions such as "Nasser
Jesus" and more recently "Arafat Jesus."
- quoted from
http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/jewish_history_5.html
- also at
http://www.abbc.net/historia/shahak/english.htm
-------end quote---------
"That is why Orthodox Jews still refer to Him not as Y'shua but as
YESHU, an acronym standing for the Hebrew words, "May his name be
blotted out."
===========
Post by íééç
the above is generally correct, however, I personally know several that
call him "Yeshua". Also The Rambam, Mamonides called him by his given name
of "Yeshua"
============
--------begin quote---------
As Rambam states at the very end of his Code of Law (Hilchos Melachim
11:4 uncensored version): "Man does not have the power to grasp the
thoughts of the Creator of the Universe. For our ways are not His ways,
nor are our thoughts His. All that happened in the wake of Yeshu of
Nazereth and that Ishmaelite who arose after him came only to
straighten the way for Melech HaMashiach and to rectify the entire
world to serve HaShem together.
- quoted from
http://azamra.org/Universal/YISRO.htm
------------begin quote------------
First of all, the rejection of Yeshu HaNotzri, as the Rambam calls
him...
- quoted from
http://www.beismoshiach.org/Moshiach/moshiach354.htm
------------begin quote------------
"all of these things about Yeshu the notri (xtian) and of that
Yishmaelite... they are only for the sake of paving the way for the
King Messiah and to rectify the entire world etc."
- quoted from
http://www.moshiach.ca/gpage.html10.html
------------end quote------------
well goes to show you as a Jew, knowing a tad of Hebrew on your part would
go a long ways :)
=========

I took Hebrew in college.

I do not have copies of Rambam's works in the original languages.

Plus, Rambam's works are like many other works in Judaism.
There were many different versions in many different editions before a
final version was decided upon with the coming of the printing press.
So the wording in one edition will vary from the wording in another
edition and a printing will often state which version it is supposed to
be (such as Talmud according to the copy owned by the Vilna Gaon).
íééç
2005-10-14 23:34:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by íééç
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Hillel M]
Since y'shu was never a Hebrew name (unless you believe
it is formed from the initial letters of the technical term for
a traitor) the question has no meaning.
[John N]
Eh? It's in Tana"kh.
[Shmuel] You must be referring to "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) found
in the TaNaHk. It is my understanding that "Yeshu" (Josh) is
a shortening of the Aramaic version of the name "Yeshua" (Joshua).
======
-------begin quote---------
That is why Orthodox Jews still refer to Him not as Y'shua but as
YESHU, an acronym standing for the Hebrew words, "May his name be
blotted out."
- quoted from
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/havurah/mm92_07/knocks
-------begin quote---------
Pirkei Avot
by Rabbi Moshe Bogomilsky
... "Yeshu," which is an acronym for yemach shemo vezichro - may his
name and memory be erased...
- quoted from
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/vedibarta-bam/avot-1.htm
-------begin quote---------
The Laws Against Non-Jews
Chapter 5
from
Jewish History, Jewish Religion
by
Israel Shahak
...
70. The Hebrew form of the name Jesus-Yeshu-was interpreted as an
acronym for the curse may his name and memory be wiped out," which is
used as an extreme form of abuse. In fact, anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews
(such as Neturey Qarta) sometimes refer to Herzl as "Herzl Jesus" and I
have found in religious Zionist writings expressions such as "Nasser
Jesus" and more recently "Arafat Jesus."
- quoted from
http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/jewish_history_5.html
- also at
http://www.abbc.net/historia/shahak/english.htm
-------end quote---------
"That is why Orthodox Jews still refer to Him not as Y'shua but as
YESHU, an acronym standing for the Hebrew words, "May his name be
blotted out."
===========
Post by íééç
the above is generally correct, however, I personally know several that
call him "Yeshua". Also The Rambam, Mamonides called him by his given name
of "Yeshua"
============
--------begin quote---------
As Rambam states at the very end of his Code of Law (Hilchos Melachim
11:4 uncensored version): "Man does not have the power to grasp the
thoughts of the Creator of the Universe. For our ways are not His ways,
nor are our thoughts His. All that happened in the wake of Yeshu of
Nazereth and that Ishmaelite who arose after him came only to
straighten the way for Melech HaMashiach and to rectify the entire
world to serve HaShem together.
- quoted from
http://azamra.org/Universal/YISRO.htm
------------begin quote------------
First of all, the rejection of Yeshu HaNotzri, as the Rambam calls
him...
- quoted from
http://www.beismoshiach.org/Moshiach/moshiach354.htm
------------begin quote------------
"all of these things about Yeshu the notri (xtian) and of that
Yishmaelite... they are only for the sake of paving the way for the
King Messiah and to rectify the entire world etc."
- quoted from
http://www.moshiach.ca/gpage.html10.html
------------end quote------------
well goes to show you as a Jew, knowing a tad of Hebrew on your part would
go a long ways :)
=========

I took Hebrew in college.

I do not have copies of Rambam's works in the original languages.

Plus, Rambam's works are like many other works in Judaism.
There were many different versions in many different editions before a
final version was decided upon with the coming of the printing press.
So the wording in one edition will vary from the wording in another
edition and a printing will often state which version it is supposed to
be (such as Talmud according to the copy owned by the Vilna Gaon).


Reasonable enough :)
f***@hotmail.com
2005-10-14 23:43:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by íééç
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Hillel M]
Since y'shu was never a Hebrew name (unless you believe
it is formed from the initial letters of the technical term for
a traitor) the question has no meaning.
[John N]
Eh? It's in Tana"kh.
[Shmuel] You must be referring to "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) found
in the TaNaHk. It is my understanding that "Yeshu" (Josh) is
a shortening of the Aramaic version of the name "Yeshua" (Joshua).
======
-------begin quote---------
That is why Orthodox Jews still refer to Him not as Y'shua but as
YESHU, an acronym standing for the Hebrew words, "May his name be
blotted out."
- quoted from
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/havurah/mm92_07/knocks
-------begin quote---------
Pirkei Avot
by Rabbi Moshe Bogomilsky
... "Yeshu," which is an acronym for yemach shemo vezichro - may his
name and memory be erased...
- quoted from
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/vedibarta-bam/avot-1.htm
-------begin quote---------
The Laws Against Non-Jews
Chapter 5
from
Jewish History, Jewish Religion
by
Israel Shahak
...
70. The Hebrew form of the name Jesus-Yeshu-was interpreted as an
acronym for the curse may his name and memory be wiped out," which is
used as an extreme form of abuse. In fact, anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews
(such as Neturey Qarta) sometimes refer to Herzl as "Herzl Jesus" and I
have found in religious Zionist writings expressions such as "Nasser
Jesus" and more recently "Arafat Jesus."
- quoted from
http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/jewish_history_5.html
- also at
http://www.abbc.net/historia/shahak/english.htm
-------end quote---------
"That is why Orthodox Jews still refer to Him not as Y'shua but as
YESHU, an acronym standing for the Hebrew words, "May his name be
blotted out."
===========
Post by íééç
the above is generally correct, however, I personally know several that
call him "Yeshua". Also The Rambam, Mamonides called him by his given name
of "Yeshua"
============
--------begin quote---------
As Rambam states at the very end of his Code of Law (Hilchos Melachim
11:4 uncensored version): "Man does not have the power to grasp the
thoughts of the Creator of the Universe. For our ways are not His ways,
nor are our thoughts His. All that happened in the wake of Yeshu of
Nazereth and that Ishmaelite who arose after him came only to
straighten the way for Melech HaMashiach and to rectify the entire
world to serve HaShem together.
- quoted from
http://azamra.org/Universal/YISRO.htm
------------begin quote------------
First of all, the rejection of Yeshu HaNotzri, as the Rambam calls
him...
- quoted from
http://www.beismoshiach.org/Moshiach/moshiach354.htm
------------begin quote------------
"all of these things about Yeshu the notri (xtian) and of that
Yishmaelite... they are only for the sake of paving the way for the
King Messiah and to rectify the entire world etc."
- quoted from
http://www.moshiach.ca/gpage.html10.html
------------end quote------------
well goes to show you as a Jew, knowing a tad of Hebrew on your part would
go a long ways :)
=========
I took Hebrew in college.
I do not have copies of Rambam's works in the original languages.
Plus, Rambam's works are like many other works in Judaism.
There were many different versions in many different editions before a
final version was decided upon with the coming of the printing press.
So the wording in one edition will vary from the wording in another
edition and a printing will often state which version it is supposed to
be (such as Talmud according to the copy owned by the Vilna Gaon).
Reasonable enough :)
=======

Reasonable?

My answer was absolutely brilliant.

That is why I am known as the parsley of alt.messianic.
No, that doesn't sound right.
The *sage* of alt.messianic.
I knew it was one of those Simon and Garfunkel herbs...
Shmuel Playfair
2005-10-16 00:59:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Hillel M]
Since y'shu was never a Hebrew name (unless you believe
it is formed from the initial letters of the technical term for
a traitor) the question has no meaning.
[John N]
Eh? It's in Tana"kh.
[Shmuel] You must be referring to "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) found
in the TaNaHk. It is my understanding that "Yeshu" (Josh) is
a shortening of the Aramaic version of the name "Yeshua" (Joshua).
[Oesterly]
[Shmuel] No! The original *name* "Yeshu" (meaning "Josh") was used
in early rabbinic literature as a shortening of the common Aramaic name
"Yeshua" (meaning Joshua). And, the much later "YSh"V" was
an *acronym* meaning "may his name and his memory be blotted out
(or obliterated)". This "acromyn" (which is *not* a name) was invented
much later in the Middle Ages and it could be applied to anyone.
____

[Oesterly continued]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
-------begin quote---------
That is why Orthodox Jews still refer to Him not as Y'shua but as
YESHU, an acronym standing for the Hebrew words, "May his name
be blotted out."
- quoted from
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/havurah/mm92_07/knocks
-------begin quote---------
Pirkei Avot
by Rabbi Moshe Bogomilsky
... "Yeshu," which is an acronym for yemach shemo vezichro - may his
name and memory be erased...
- quoted from
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/vedibarta-bam/avot-1.htm
-------begin quote---------
The Laws Against Non-Jews
Chapter 5
from
Jewish History, Jewish Religion
by Israel Shahak
...
70. The Hebrew form of the name Jesus-Yeshu-was interpreted as an
acronym for the curse may his name and memory be wiped out," which is
used as an extreme form of abuse. In fact, anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews
(such as Neturey Qarta) sometimes refer to Herzl as "Herzl Jesus" and I
have found in religious Zionist writings expressions such as "Nasser
Jesus" and more recently "Arafat Jesus."
- quoted from
http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/jewish_history_5.html
- also at
http://www.abbc.net/historia/shahak/english.htm
-------end quote---------
[Shmuel] We've been over this more than once. Maybe you
missed the following discussions:

==========================================
The Acronym YSh"V

[Nancy]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
I realise that you rather say 'yeshu' (may his name be blotted out
from the living),
[Cindy S]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I believe you are thinking of the expression *yemach shemo.*
[Shmuel] The full expression that she has is mind is "yeemHak shemo
v'zeekrono" meaning "may his name and his memory be blotted out
(or obliterated)". The first letters make the acronym YSh"V; but,
it would not be pronounced as "Yeshu", an Aramaic name.

===============================================

[Michael Shoshani]
Every once in a while we get some moron who is bound and determined to
"prove" from some scurrilous writing that "yeshu" is an acronym for
"yemach shemo v'zichrono" (may his name and memory be obliterated). It
usually takes about half a dozen of us from around the world to explain
that no such acronym EXISTS for that particular phrase, that if it is
abbreviated at all it would be written ysh"v; that we typically do not
read abbreviations with vowels as though they were words (most people do
not say 'zal' for z"l but rather 'zichrono liveracha' instead), and if we
DID, ysh"v would be pronounced yashav; and that there are several persons
named Yeshu running around the Talmud. Eventually these people get bored
and move on.

===============================================

^ >[Shmuel] Originally the name "Yeshu" (Josh) was a shortened form
^ >of the Aramaic [not Hebrew] name "Yeshua" (Joshua). [The Hebrew
^ >version is "Y'hoshua".] The name "Yeshu" (without any "contemptuous"
^ >connotation) can be found in early rabbinic literature. The first
^ >reference to YSh"V as an acronym meaning "may his name and
^ >his memory be blotted out" is not found until much later during
^ >the middle ages.

[Michael S]
^ And as I have pointed out, if "Yeshu", spelled yud-shin-vav, actually
^ stood for "yimach shemo vezichrono", it would be pronounced YASHAV.
^ Because the last letter would be treated as a CONSONANT, not a vowel.
^ And most of those types of acronyms are given an "A" vocalization as a
^ convenience.
^
^ Plus, those sorts of abbreviations are spelled with a couple of
^ apostrophes--that's the standard way of IDENTIFYING an abbreviation.
^ If you come acrose a bit of Talmud that refers to someone as YSHV,
^ it's a name. It would only be the abbreviation that the misinformed
^ Glen (and the gullible, eager-to-jump-on-any-accusation-against-Jews
^ Peter) insist upon if it were spelled YSH' 'V. It is not.

===========================================

^ >[Shmuel] Originally the name "Yeshu" (Josh) was a shortened form
^ >of the Aramaic [not Hebrew] name "Yeshua" (Joshua). [The Hebrew
^ >version is "Y'hoshua".] The name "Yeshu" (without any "contemptuous"
^ >connotation) can be found in early rabbinic literature. The first
^ >reference to YSh"V as an acronym meaning "may his name and
^ >his memory be blotted out" is not found until much later during
^ >the middle ages.

[Glen]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Nevertheless, as of the middle ages it bore a strongly negative
connotation; which is the entire point.
[Shmuel] The same name can have different connotations for different
people. The word "Yankee", for example, can be simply a nickname
applied to the English settlers in Connecticut by the Dutch of colonial
New York. Or, the name "Yankee" can be used as a term of derision
given to a Federal soldier by a southerner during the Civil War. Or, it
can be used as a positive adjective by others as in the phrase "great
Yankee ingenuity". So also the name "Yeshu" can have different
connotations for different people.

For most Jews "Yeshu" is simply a simple nickname (Josh) applied to
anyone whose name happens to be "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) in Hebrew
or "Yeshua" in Aramaic. For others it could be used as an offensive term
of derision when written as an acronym, YSh"V.

==========================================
Yeshu = Yeshua (in Aramaic) = Y'hoshua (Joshua in Hebrew)

[Nancy]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I realise that you rather say 'yeshu' (may his name be blotted out from
the living), than Yeshua (Salvation), but if Yeshua is Messiah you can
explain to Him why you said what you said on Judgement Day.
[Shmuel] The name "Yeshu" (Josh) is short-hand for "Yeshua"
which is the Aramaic version of the Hebrew name "Y'hoshua" (Joshua),
just like "Sam" is a short-hand version of "Samuel" in English.

The acronym YSh"V *rather* *than* the name "Yeshu" means
"may his name [and memory] be blotted out (from the living)".
___

[Nancy continued]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
It's more obvious each day, reading the constant blasphemy, why Israel
will MOURN instead of experiencing Simcha when Messiah comes
Zech 12:10
[Shmuel] The constant blasphemy of considering a human creature
to be the Creator will be silenced when the Messiah comes to set
the "Christians" straight. These Romans and their spiritual descendants
will mourn for the Jew(s) they have often thrust through with
their repeated words of hate and blasphemy.

==========================================
f***@hotmail.com
2005-10-16 11:27:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Hillel M]
Since y'shu was never a Hebrew name (unless you believe
it is formed from the initial letters of the technical term for
a traitor) the question has no meaning.
[John N]
Eh? It's in Tana"kh.
[Shmuel] You must be referring to "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) found
in the TaNaHk. It is my understanding that "Yeshu" (Josh) is
a shortening of the Aramaic version of the name "Yeshua" (Joshua).
[Oesterly]
[Shmuel] No!
=======

I quoted Jewish sources.

You quoted nobody.
Shmuel Playfair
2005-10-16 15:03:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Hillel M]
Since y'shu was never a Hebrew name (unless you believe
it is formed from the initial letters of the technical term for
a traitor) the question has no meaning.
[John N]
Eh? It's in Tana"kh.
[Shmuel] You must be referring to "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) found
in the TaNaHk. It is my understanding that "Yeshu" (Josh) is
a shortening of the Aramaic version of the name "Yeshua" (Joshua).
[Oesterly]
[Shmuel] No!
[Oesterly deletes my response and says]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I quoted Jewish sources.
You quoted nobody.
[Shmuel] I don't believe that any of your Christian readers are
this easily convinced by your quotes, your deleting my response
and your *false* claim that I "quoted nobody". I don't think that
they are as dumb as you apparently do.
f***@hotmail.com
2005-10-16 15:38:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Hillel M]
Since y'shu was never a Hebrew name (unless you believe
it is formed from the initial letters of the technical term for
a traitor) the question has no meaning.
[John N]
Eh? It's in Tana"kh.
[Shmuel] You must be referring to "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) found
in the TaNaHk. It is my understanding that "Yeshu" (Josh) is
a shortening of the Aramaic version of the name "Yeshua" (Joshua).
[Oesterly]
[Shmuel] No!
[Oesterly deletes my response and says]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I quoted Jewish sources.
You quoted nobody.
[Shmuel] I don't believe that any of your Christian readers are
this easily convinced by your quotes, your deleting my response
and your *false* claim that I "quoted nobody". I don't think that
they are as dumb as you apparently do.
=======

I looked back over your post again.

The only person you cited as an authority on the subject was
*yourself*.
You did not quote or cite anybody at all to support your allegations.

On the other hand, I quoted 3 sources if my memory serves correctly:
1. Chabad
2. that liberal Jewish guy "Shankel" or whatever his name is
3. Jews for Jesus
Shmuel Playfair
2005-10-17 02:25:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Hillel M]
Since y'shu was never a Hebrew name (unless you believe
it is formed from the initial letters of the technical term for
a traitor) the question has no meaning.
[John N]
Eh? It's in Tana"kh.
[Shmuel] You must be referring to "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) found
in the TaNaHk. It is my understanding that "Yeshu" (Josh) is
a shortening of the Aramaic version of the name "Yeshua" (Joshua).
[Oesterly]
[Shmuel] No!
[Oesterly deletes my response and says]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I quoted Jewish sources.
You quoted nobody.
[Shmuel] I don't believe that any of your Christian readers are
this easily convinced by your quotes, your deleting my response
and your *false* claim that I "quoted nobody". I don't think that
they are as dumb as you apparently do.
[Oesterly]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I looked back over your post again.
The only person you cited as an authority on the subject was
*yourself*.
You did not quote or cite anybody at all to support your allegations.
[Shmuel] Look again! I also quoted Michael Shoshani,
a knowledgeable Jew who used to post here. Also, professor
David Flusser at the Hebrew University was the Jewish scholar
who first taught me many years ago that "Yeshu" was originally
used as a common Jewish name rather than as an acronym. In
his book "Jesus" he documents ossuaries found in Israel which
carried the name "Yeshu" long before anyone thought of using
the letters YSh"V as an acronym.
____

[Oesterly continued]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
1. Chabad
2. that liberal Jewish guy "Shankel" or whatever his name is
3. Jews for Jesus
[Shmuel] So people now have a choice! They can trust
your quotations by those who are apparently ignorant on this topic
or they can consider the difference between a name (which is used
*without* any contemptuous connotation both in early Jewish literature
and in Israel today) and an acronym (not used until the Middle Ages)
which is *not* pronounced as "Yeshu" and which can be applied
to anyone.

============================
From: Mark Steiner <***@vms.huji.ac.il>
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:54:04 +0300
Subject: Re: Spelling of Jesus

On the name of Jesus, the spelling yod-shin-vov is certainly not an
acronym for "yimah shmo vezikhro"--in fact the claim that it is, like
the gematria on vorik, is an antisemitic libel by the Church, which we
should avoid like the plague. The name yeshu was not an uncommon one
during the period in question--I recently saw an exhibition at the
Israel Museum on the origins of Christianity with a number of sarcophagi
containing the inscription yeshu--including even one yeshu ben yehosef!!
I believe that yeshu and yeshu`a are variants of the same name, with the
`ayin having dropped out in places where it was not pronounced (in the
Galilee, for example, where Jesus was probably born, despite what the
New Testament says).
==========================================
Last update - 01:29 27/10/2002
Is this Jesus' brother?
By Yair Sheleg in "Haaretz"

Incidentally, Jesus is always called "Yeshu" in the Talmud, hence also his
name in the Jewish tradition ever since - and not Yeshua, which was probably
his real name. Over the centuries the name was considered an acronym, in
Hebrew, of "may his name and memory be obliterated," expressing the reaction
of the Jews to the hatred of the Christians for them. However, research
raises the possibility that the change in name derived from a different
tradition of the name's pronunciation and that the acronymic meaning was
added as an explanation in a later period.
f***@hotmail.com
2005-10-17 03:03:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Hillel M]
Since y'shu was never a Hebrew name (unless you believe
it is formed from the initial letters of the technical term for
a traitor) the question has no meaning.
[John N]
Eh? It's in Tana"kh.
[Shmuel] You must be referring to "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) found
in the TaNaHk. It is my understanding that "Yeshu" (Josh) is
a shortening of the Aramaic version of the name "Yeshua" (Joshua).
[Oesterly]
[Shmuel] No!
[Oesterly deletes my response and says]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I quoted Jewish sources.
You quoted nobody.
[Shmuel] I don't believe that any of your Christian readers are
this easily convinced by your quotes, your deleting my response
and your *false* claim that I "quoted nobody". I don't think that
they are as dumb as you apparently do.
[Oesterly]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I looked back over your post again.
The only person you cited as an authority on the subject was
*yourself*.
You did not quote or cite anybody at all to support your allegations.
[Shmuel] Look again! I also quoted Michael Shoshani,
a knowledgeable Jew who used to post here.
=========

I quoted a rabbi at Chabad.

You quoted a guy "who used to post here".
"Used to post here" is not a credential.

=========
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Also, professor
David Flusser at the Hebrew University was the Jewish scholar
who first taught me many years ago that "Yeshu" was originally
used as a common Jewish name rather than as an acronym. In
his book "Jesus" he documents ossuaries found in Israel which
carried the name "Yeshu" long before anyone thought of using
the letters YSh"V as an acronym.
==========

You did not quote him in your post.
You did not mention him in your post.
Even now you are not providing any quotes.
We merely have your allegation.

==========
Post by Shmuel Playfair
____
[Oesterly continued]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
1. Chabad
2. that liberal Jewish guy "Shankel" or whatever his name is
3. Jews for Jesus
[Shmuel] So people now have a choice! They can trust
your quotations by those who are apparently ignorant on this topic
or they can consider the difference between a name (which is used
*without* any contemptuous connotation both in early Jewish literature
and in Israel today) and an acronym (not used until the Middle Ages)
which is *not* pronounced as "Yeshu" and which can be applied
to anyone.
=============

Chabad rabbis are ignorant?

=============
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:54:04 +0300
Subject: Re: Spelling of Jesus
On the name of Jesus, the spelling yod-shin-vov is certainly not an
acronym for "yimah shmo vezikhro"--in fact the claim that it is, like
the gematria on vorik, is an antisemitic libel by the Church, which we
should avoid like the plague. The name yeshu was not an uncommon one
during the period in question--I recently saw an exhibition at the
Israel Museum on the origins of Christianity with a number of sarcophagi
containing the inscription yeshu--including even one yeshu ben yehosef!!
I believe that yeshu and yeshu`a are variants of the same name, with the
`ayin having dropped out in places where it was not pronounced (in the
Galilee, for example, where Jesus was probably born, despite what the
New Testament says).
=================

I quote a rabbi at Chabad and you quote a post from some guy with no
credentials?

=================
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Last update - 01:29 27/10/2002
Is this Jesus' brother?
By Yair Sheleg in "Haaretz"
Incidentally, Jesus is always called "Yeshu" in the Talmud, hence also his
name in the Jewish tradition ever since - and not Yeshua, which was probably
his real name. Over the centuries the name was considered an acronym, in
Hebrew, of "may his name and memory be obliterated," expressing the reaction
of the Jews to the hatred of the Christians for them. However, research
raises the possibility that the change in name derived from a different
tradition of the name's pronunciation and that the acronymic meaning was
added as an explanation in a later period.
===========

"Raises the possibility"?

Even though he admits that the *traditional* interpretation is exactly
as I said.

That's proof for your allegation?

I said that when Jews call Jesus "Yeshu" they are insulting Jesus.
Your writer here *agrees* since he says that has been the traditional
interpretation of "Yeshu" that has been taught for "centuries".
And I quoted the Chabad rabbi (and 2 other sources) who agree that is
what modern followers of Judaism mean when they call Jesus "Yeshu".
They have all been taught that they are saying, "may his name be
blotted out".
Shmuel Playfair
2005-10-20 01:26:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Shmuel] You must be referring to "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) found
in the TaNaHk. It is my understanding that "Yeshu" (Josh) is
a shortening of the Aramaic version of the name "Yeshua" (Joshua).
[Oesterly]
[Shmuel] No!
[Oesterly deletes the rest of my response without any
indication he has done so and says]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I quoted Jewish sources.
You quoted nobody.
[Shmuel] I don't believe that any of your Christian readers are
this easily convinced by your quotes, your deleting my response
and your *false* claim that I "quoted nobody". I don't think that
they are as dumb as you apparently do.
[Oesterly]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I looked back over your post again.
The only person you cited as an authority on the subject was
*yourself*.
You did not quote or cite anybody at all to support your allegations.
[Shmuel] Look again! I also quoted Michael Shoshani,
a knowledgeable Jew who used to post here.
[Oesterly]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I quoted a rabbi at Chabad.
You quoted a guy "who used to post here".
"Used to post here" is not a credential.
[Shmuel] Which "credential" one has or doesn't have is
*not* relevant to deciding the issue. Maybe it is a deciding
factor for you and your imaginary audience.
_____

[Oesterly continued]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Also, professor
David Flusser at the Hebrew University was the Jewish scholar
who first taught me many years ago that "Yeshu" was originally
used as a common Jewish name rather than as an acronym. In
his book "Jesus" he documents ossuaries found in Israel which
carried the name "Yeshu" long before anyone thought of using
the letters YSh"V as an acronym.
[Oesterly]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
You did not quote him in your post.
You did not mention him in your post.
Even now you are not providing any quotes.
We merely have your allegation.
[Shmuel] While you may choose to disregard "[my] allegation",
others may choose not to do so.
____
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Oesterly continued]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
1. Chabad
2. that liberal Jewish guy "Shankel" or whatever his name is
3. Jews for Jesus
[Shmuel] So people now have a choice! They can trust
your quotations by those who are apparently ignorant on this topic
or they can consider the difference between a name (which is used
*without* any contemptuous connotation both in early Jewish literature
and in Israel today) and an acronym (not used until the Middle Ages)
which is *not* pronounced as "Yeshu" and which can be applied
to anyone.
[Oesterly]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Chabad rabbis are ignorant?
[Shmuel] This one HaBaD rabbi was apparently ignorant regarding
"this [one] topic", the historical use of the *name* "Yeshu" before
the acronym YSh''V was later invented.
_______

[Shmuel]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:54:04 +0300
Subject: Re: Spelling of Jesus
On the name of Jesus, the spelling yod-shin-vov is certainly not an
acronym for "yimah shmo vezikhro"--in fact the claim that it is, like
the gematria on vorik, is an antisemitic libel by the Church, which we
should avoid like the plague. The name yeshu was not an uncommon one
during the period in question--I recently saw an exhibition at the
Israel Museum on the origins of Christianity with a number of sarcophagi
containing the inscription yeshu--including even one yeshu ben yehosef!!
I believe that yeshu and yeshu`a are variants of the same name, with the
`ayin having dropped out in places where it was not pronounced (in the
Galilee, for example, where Jesus was probably born, despite what the
New Testament says).
[Oesterly]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I quote a rabbi at Chabad and you quote a post from some guy
with no credentials?
[Shmuel] Many people with no credentials know far more
regarding many particular topics than others with credentials.
Or hadn't you noticed? I think it is possible that this particular
"rabbi at Chabad" was completely unaware of the number of
old sarcophagi containing the name "Yeshu" (rather then
the acronym "YSh"V") at the Israel Museum when he spoke.
_____

[Shmuel]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Last update - 01:29 27/10/2002
Is this Jesus' brother?
By Yair Sheleg in "Haaretz"
Incidentally, Jesus is always called "Yeshu" in the Talmud, hence also
his name in the Jewish tradition ever since - and not Yeshua, which
was probably his real name. Over the centuries the name was
considered an acronym, in Hebrew, of "may his name and memory
be obliterated," expressing the reaction
of the Jews to the hatred of the Christians for them. However, research
raises the possibility that the change in name derived from a different
tradition of the name's pronunciation and that the acronymic meaning was
added as an explanation in a later period.
[Oesterly]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
"Raises the possibility"?
Even though he admits that the *traditional* interpretation is exactly
as I said.
That's proof for your allegation?
I said that when Jews call Jesus "Yeshu" they are insulting Jesus.
Your writer here *agrees* since he says that has been the traditional
interpretation of "Yeshu" that has been taught for "centuries".
And I quoted the Chabad rabbi (and 2 other sources) who agree that is
what modern followers of Judaism mean when they call Jesus "Yeshu".
They have all been taught that they are saying, "may his name be
blotted out".
[Shmuel] I've heard Jews in modern Israel calling him "Yeshu" with
no feeling or idea that "they are insulting Jesus". These Israelis have
*not* been taught that "they are saying, 'may his name be blotted out' "
as you *falsely* claim.

Where is the proof for your allegation that the *name* "Yeshu"
(not just the acronym) means and has always meant "may his name
be blotted out"? Your three sources give no such proof.

íééç
2005-10-17 08:39:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Hillel M]
Since y'shu was never a Hebrew name (unless you believe
it is formed from the initial letters of the technical term for
a traitor) the question has no meaning.
[John N]
Eh? It's in Tana"kh.
[Shmuel] You must be referring to "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) found
in the TaNaHk. It is my understanding that "Yeshu" (Josh) is
a shortening of the Aramaic version of the name "Yeshua" (Joshua).
[Oesterly]
[Shmuel] No!
[Oesterly deletes my response and says]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I quoted Jewish sources.
You quoted nobody.
[Shmuel] I don't believe that any of your Christian readers are
this easily convinced by your quotes, your deleting my response
and your *false* claim that I "quoted nobody". I don't think that
they are as dumb as you apparently do.
[Oesterly]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I looked back over your post again.
The only person you cited as an authority on the subject was
*yourself*.
You did not quote or cite anybody at all to support your allegations.
[Shmuel] Look again! I also quoted Michael Shoshani,
a knowledgeable Jew who used to post here. Also, professor
David Flusser at the Hebrew University was the Jewish scholar
who first taught me many years ago that "Yeshu" was originally
used as a common Jewish name rather than as an acronym. In
his book "Jesus" he documents ossuaries found in Israel which
carried the name "Yeshu" long before anyone thought of using
the letters YSh"V as an acronym.
____
[Oesterly continued]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
1. Chabad
2. that liberal Jewish guy "Shankel" or whatever his name is
3. Jews for Jesus
[Shmuel] So people now have a choice! They can trust
your quotations by those who are apparently ignorant on this topic
or they can consider the difference between a name (which is used
*without* any contemptuous connotation both in early Jewish literature
and in Israel today) and an acronym (not used until the Middle Ages)
which is *not* pronounced as "Yeshu" and which can be applied
to anyone.
============================
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:54:04 +0300
Subject: Re: Spelling of Jesus
On the name of Jesus, the spelling yod-shin-vov is certainly not an
acronym for "yimah shmo vezikhro"--in fact the claim that it is, like
the gematria on vorik, is an antisemitic libel by the Church, which we
should avoid like the plague. The name yeshu was not an uncommon one
during the period in question--I recently saw an exhibition at the
Israel Museum on the origins of Christianity with a number of sarcophagi
containing the inscription yeshu--including even one yeshu ben yehosef!!
I believe that yeshu and yeshu`a are variants of the same name, with the
`ayin having dropped out in places where it was not pronounced (in the
Galilee, for example, where Jesus was probably born, despite what the
New Testament says).
==========================================
Last update - 01:29 27/10/2002
Is this Jesus' brother?
By Yair Sheleg in "Haaretz"
Incidentally, Jesus is always called "Yeshu" in the Talmud, hence also his
name in the Jewish tradition ever since - and not Yeshua, which was probably
his real name. Over the centuries the name was considered an acronym, in
Hebrew, of "may his name and memory be obliterated," expressing the reaction
of the Jews to the hatred of the Christians for them. However, research
raises the possibility that the change in name derived from a different
tradition of the name's pronunciation and that the acronymic meaning was
added as an explanation in a later period.
Shmuel; The clear evidence for the name of "Jesus" in the Aramaic is in
acts where Joshua is referred to as "Iesou" just as the character we call
"Jesus" is. that's clear proof.

as the post I made before, Yud Shin wav(shoorook) ayin (patach) taken to a
transliteration of I-E-O-U is and identical spot on match. The people who
say otherwise are totally ignorant of the literal transliteration and spout
things like " the Messianic made that up" showing themselves totally
ignorant of Hebrew-Greek-Aramaic.

I don't care what the Satan guy here says or others, he is wrong as well,
there is no truncation to ESHU OR ISHU in Aramaic. HE DOES NOT UNDERSTAND
Hebrew or Aramaic to the point would be like some Spanish guy telling
Americans that the word for car is "ar" ITS LAUGHABLE.

its a fact, not an assumption, but a clearly proven fact, the exact
Hebrew-Aramaic to English rendering of the central figure of the NT is
JOSHUA period!!

Hebrew = yud hay wav shin ayin
Aramaic =Yud shin wav ayin

Aramaic is NOT TRUNCATED, if that Satan guy really knew Hebrew and Aramaic
terms, he would know shin to

the wave to the patach ayin is SHUA

Yud hay wav shin ayin = same patach ayin

Yhowahsh(U)a
'man im getting sick of explaining this, that's not on you, that Satan guy
really bothers me because he is basically full of krap.

its obvious from history they spoke Aramaic in the days of Yeshua.

the literal transliteration of IESOU(S) IS Yeishua

EISHU(O)A but the truncation EISHU(O) would occur from Greek back to Aramaic
because Greek has not equivalent to the ayin in Aramaic/Hebrew.

that's prob where the "ha Satan" in His ignorance of the Aramaic Hebrew
language (but for some reason of complete assumption he thinks otherwise) is
getting his "truncation" info from.

Please people, I actually do know what I am talking about here and anyone
who speaks and knows Hebrew/Aramaic FOR REAL (not some half baked "well I
know Biblical Hebrew because I took a course online at burger king) knows I
am telling the exact truth here.
íééç
2005-10-17 08:48:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Hillel M]
Since y'shu was never a Hebrew name (unless you believe
it is formed from the initial letters of the technical term for
a traitor) the question has no meaning.
[John N]
Eh? It's in Tana"kh.
[Shmuel] You must be referring to "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) found
in the TaNaHk. It is my understanding that "Yeshu" (Josh) is
a shortening of the Aramaic version of the name "Yeshua" (Joshua).
[Oesterly]
[Shmuel] No!
[Oesterly deletes my response and says]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I quoted Jewish sources.
You quoted nobody.
[Shmuel] I don't believe that any of your Christian readers are
this easily convinced by your quotes, your deleting my response
and your *false* claim that I "quoted nobody". I don't think that
they are as dumb as you apparently do.
[Oesterly]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I looked back over your post again.
The only person you cited as an authority on the subject was
*yourself*.
You did not quote or cite anybody at all to support your allegations.
[Shmuel] Look again! I also quoted Michael Shoshani,
a knowledgeable Jew who used to post here. Also, professor
David Flusser at the Hebrew University was the Jewish scholar
who first taught me many years ago that "Yeshu" was originally
used as a common Jewish name rather than as an acronym. In
his book "Jesus" he documents ossuaries found in Israel which
carried the name "Yeshu" long before anyone thought of using
the letters YSh"V as an acronym.
____
[Oesterly continued]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
1. Chabad
2. that liberal Jewish guy "Shankel" or whatever his name is
3. Jews for Jesus
[Shmuel] So people now have a choice! They can trust
your quotations by those who are apparently ignorant on this topic
or they can consider the difference between a name (which is used
*without* any contemptuous connotation both in early Jewish literature
and in Israel today) and an acronym (not used until the Middle Ages)
which is *not* pronounced as "Yeshu" and which can be applied
to anyone.
============================
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:54:04 +0300
Subject: Re: Spelling of Jesus
On the name of Jesus, the spelling yod-shin-vov is certainly not an
acronym for "yimah shmo vezikhro"--in fact the claim that it is, like
the gematria on vorik, is an antisemitic libel by the Church, which we
should avoid like the plague. The name yeshu was not an uncommon one
during the period in question--I recently saw an exhibition at the
Israel Museum on the origins of Christianity with a number of sarcophagi
containing the inscription yeshu--including even one yeshu ben yehosef!!
I believe that yeshu and yeshu`a are variants of the same name, with the
`ayin having dropped out in places where it was not pronounced (in the
Galilee, for example, where Jesus was probably born, despite what the
New Testament says).
==========================================
Last update - 01:29 27/10/2002
Is this Jesus' brother?
By Yair Sheleg in "Haaretz"
Incidentally, Jesus is always called "Yeshu" in the Talmud, hence also his
name in the Jewish tradition ever since - and not Yeshua, which was probably
his real name. Over the centuries the name was considered an acronym, in
Hebrew, of "may his name and memory be obliterated," expressing the reaction
of the Jews to the hatred of the Christians for them. However, research
raises the possibility that the change in name derived from a different
tradition of the name's pronunciation and that the acronymic meaning was
added as an explanation in a later period.
Shmuel wrote;
Post by Shmuel Playfair
On the name of Jesus, the spelling yod-shin-vov is certainly not an
acronym for "yimah shmo vezikhro"--in fact the claim that it is, like
the gematria on vorik, is an antisemitic libel by the Church,
actually Shmuel IT MOST DEFINITELY IS!!

Yes, Yeshu was a common name in those days.

The key issue here is not to forgot in acts where Stephen refers to
"Joshua" son of nun as "Iesous"

the core confusion in this comes from the lack of an Aramaic/Hebrew
equivalent to IesoU the U. there is no Greek that can transliterate the ayin
to Greek. that's the core issue.

"May his name be blotted out" as you refer to as not being the intended
scope of Talmudic references to "Jesus" is flat out wrong, it is.

again the core evidence is the reference to Joshua, son of nun by Stephen
in acts having the Greek rendering "Iesous" Is clear and unmistakable
evidence to the actual Aramaic name of Yud shin wav ayin =Joshua. not Yud
shin wav= Josh. the Greek should render that

Iesu, the extra Iesous the U there shows another letter that cannot be
properly transliterated to Greek.
íééç
2005-10-17 11:35:47 UTC
Permalink
CORRECTION;

the Greek should render that

Iesu, the extra Iesous the U there shows another letter that cannot be
properly transliterated to Greek.

should read;

the Greek should render that

Ieso, (Yeso, Yesho)
the extra Iesou(s) the U there shows another letter that cannot be
properly transliterated to Greek.

the Iesou the u being added clearly shows another letter on top of Yeshu
which in this along with the Greek writer of acts equating "Joshua" son of
Nun to the same "Iesou" is more than enough direct evidence to show "Yeshua"
and not literally "Yeshu" to be the correct rendering of the man "Jesus"

Peace
Post by íééç
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Hillel M]
Since y'shu was never a Hebrew name (unless you believe
it is formed from the initial letters of the technical term for
a traitor) the question has no meaning.
[John N]
Eh? It's in Tana"kh.
[Shmuel] You must be referring to "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) found
in the TaNaHk. It is my understanding that "Yeshu" (Josh) is
a shortening of the Aramaic version of the name "Yeshua" (Joshua).
[Oesterly]
[Shmuel] No!
[Oesterly deletes my response and says]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I quoted Jewish sources.
You quoted nobody.
[Shmuel] I don't believe that any of your Christian readers are
this easily convinced by your quotes, your deleting my response
and your *false* claim that I "quoted nobody". I don't think that
they are as dumb as you apparently do.
[Oesterly]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I looked back over your post again.
The only person you cited as an authority on the subject was
*yourself*.
You did not quote or cite anybody at all to support your allegations.
[Shmuel] Look again! I also quoted Michael Shoshani,
a knowledgeable Jew who used to post here. Also, professor
David Flusser at the Hebrew University was the Jewish scholar
who first taught me many years ago that "Yeshu" was originally
used as a common Jewish name rather than as an acronym. In
his book "Jesus" he documents ossuaries found in Israel which
carried the name "Yeshu" long before anyone thought of using
the letters YSh"V as an acronym.
____
[Oesterly continued]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
1. Chabad
2. that liberal Jewish guy "Shankel" or whatever his name is
3. Jews for Jesus
[Shmuel] So people now have a choice! They can trust
your quotations by those who are apparently ignorant on this topic
or they can consider the difference between a name (which is used
*without* any contemptuous connotation both in early Jewish literature
and in Israel today) and an acronym (not used until the Middle Ages)
which is *not* pronounced as "Yeshu" and which can be applied
to anyone.
============================
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:54:04 +0300
Subject: Re: Spelling of Jesus
On the name of Jesus, the spelling yod-shin-vov is certainly not an
acronym for "yimah shmo vezikhro"--in fact the claim that it is, like
the gematria on vorik, is an antisemitic libel by the Church, which we
should avoid like the plague. The name yeshu was not an uncommon one
during the period in question--I recently saw an exhibition at the
Israel Museum on the origins of Christianity with a number of sarcophagi
containing the inscription yeshu--including even one yeshu ben yehosef!!
I believe that yeshu and yeshu`a are variants of the same name, with the
`ayin having dropped out in places where it was not pronounced (in the
Galilee, for example, where Jesus was probably born, despite what the
New Testament says).
==========================================
Last update - 01:29 27/10/2002
Is this Jesus' brother?
By Yair Sheleg in "Haaretz"
Incidentally, Jesus is always called "Yeshu" in the Talmud, hence also his
name in the Jewish tradition ever since - and not Yeshua, which was probably
his real name. Over the centuries the name was considered an acronym, in
Hebrew, of "may his name and memory be obliterated," expressing the reaction
of the Jews to the hatred of the Christians for them. However, research
raises the possibility that the change in name derived from a different
tradition of the name's pronunciation and that the acronymic meaning was
added as an explanation in a later period.
Shmuel wrote;
Post by Shmuel Playfair
On the name of Jesus, the spelling yod-shin-vov is certainly not an
acronym for "yimah shmo vezikhro"--in fact the claim that it is, like
the gematria on vorik, is an antisemitic libel by the Church,
actually Shmuel IT MOST DEFINITELY IS!!
Yes, Yeshu was a common name in those days.
The key issue here is not to forgot in acts where Stephen refers to
"Joshua" son of nun as "Iesous"
the core confusion in this comes from the lack of an Aramaic/Hebrew
equivalent to IesoU the U. there is no Greek that can transliterate the
ayin to Greek. that's the core issue.
"May his name be blotted out" as you refer to as not being the intended
scope of Talmudic references to "Jesus" is flat out wrong, it is.
again the core evidence is the reference to Joshua, son of nun by Stephen
in acts having the Greek rendering "Iesous" Is clear and unmistakable
evidence to the actual Aramaic name of Yud shin wav ayin =Joshua. not Yud
shin wav= Josh. the Greek should render that
Iesu, the extra Iesous the U there shows another letter that cannot be
properly transliterated to Greek.
P.T.
2005-10-17 17:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shmuel Playfair
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Hillel M]
Since y'shu was never a Hebrew name (unless you believe
it is formed from the initial letters of the technical term for
a traitor) the question has no meaning.
[John N]
Eh? It's in Tana"kh.
[Shmuel] You must be referring to "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) found
in the TaNaHk. It is my understanding that "Yeshu" (Josh) is
a shortening of the Aramaic version of the name "Yeshua" (Joshua).
[Oesterly]
[Shmuel] No! The original *name* "Yeshu" (meaning "Josh") was used
in early rabbinic literature as a shortening of the common Aramaic name
"Yeshua" (meaning Joshua). And, the much later "YSh"V" was
an *acronym* meaning "may his name and his memory be blotted out
(or obliterated)". This "acromyn" (which is *not* a name) was invented
much later in the Middle Ages and it could be applied to anyone.
____
[Oesterly continued]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
-------begin quote---------
That is why Orthodox Jews still refer to Him not as Y'shua but as
YESHU, an acronym standing for the Hebrew words, "May his name
be blotted out."
- quoted from
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/havurah/mm92_07/knocks
-------begin quote---------
Pirkei Avot
by Rabbi Moshe Bogomilsky
... "Yeshu," which is an acronym for yemach shemo vezichro - may his
name and memory be erased...
- quoted from
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/vedibarta-bam/avot-1.htm
-------begin quote---------
The Laws Against Non-Jews
Chapter 5
from
Jewish History, Jewish Religion
by Israel Shahak
...
70. The Hebrew form of the name Jesus-Yeshu-was interpreted as an
acronym for the curse may his name and memory be wiped out," which is
used as an extreme form of abuse. In fact, anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews
(such as Neturey Qarta) sometimes refer to Herzl as "Herzl Jesus" and I
have found in religious Zionist writings expressions such as "Nasser
Jesus" and more recently "Arafat Jesus."
- quoted from
http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/jewish_history_5.html
- also at
http://www.abbc.net/historia/shahak/english.htm
-------end quote---------
[Shmuel] We've been over this more than once. Maybe you
==========================================
The Acronym YSh"V
[Nancy]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
I realise that you rather say 'yeshu' (may his name be blotted out
from the living),
[Cindy S]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I believe you are thinking of the expression *yemach shemo.*
[Shmuel] The full expression that she has is mind is "yeemHak shemo
v'zeekrono" meaning "may his name and his memory be blotted out
(or obliterated)". The first letters make the acronym YSh"V; but,
it would not be pronounced as "Yeshu", an Aramaic name.
===============================================
[Michael Shoshani]
Every once in a while we get some moron who is bound and determined to
"prove" from some scurrilous writing that "yeshu" is an acronym for
"yemach shemo v'zichrono" (may his name and memory be obliterated). It
usually takes about half a dozen of us from around the world to explain
that no such acronym EXISTS for that particular phrase, that if it is
abbreviated at all it would be written ysh"v; that we typically do not
read abbreviations with vowels as though they were words (most people do
not say 'zal' for z"l but rather 'zichrono liveracha' instead), and if we
DID, ysh"v would be pronounced yashav; and that there are several persons
named Yeshu running around the Talmud. Eventually these people get bored
and move on.
===============================================
^ >[Shmuel] Originally the name "Yeshu" (Josh) was a shortened form
^ >of the Aramaic [not Hebrew] name "Yeshua" (Joshua). [The Hebrew
^ >version is "Y'hoshua".] The name "Yeshu" (without any "contemptuous"
^ >connotation) can be found in early rabbinic literature. The first
^ >reference to YSh"V as an acronym meaning "may his name and
^ >his memory be blotted out" is not found until much later during
^ >the middle ages.
[Michael S]
^ And as I have pointed out, if "Yeshu", spelled yud-shin-vav, actually
^ stood for "yimach shemo vezichrono", it would be pronounced YASHAV.
^ Because the last letter would be treated as a CONSONANT, not a vowel.
^ And most of those types of acronyms are given an "A" vocalization as a
^ convenience.
^
^ Plus, those sorts of abbreviations are spelled with a couple of
^ apostrophes--that's the standard way of IDENTIFYING an abbreviation.
^ If you come acrose a bit of Talmud that refers to someone as YSHV,
^ it's a name. It would only be the abbreviation that the misinformed
^ Glen (and the gullible, eager-to-jump-on-any-accusation-against-Jews
^ Peter) insist upon if it were spelled YSH' 'V. It is not.
===========================================
^ >[Shmuel] Originally the name "Yeshu" (Josh) was a shortened form
^ >of the Aramaic [not Hebrew] name "Yeshua" (Joshua). [The Hebrew
^ >version is "Y'hoshua".] The name "Yeshu" (without any "contemptuous"
^ >connotation) can be found in early rabbinic literature. The first
^ >reference to YSh"V as an acronym meaning "may his name and
^ >his memory be blotted out" is not found until much later during
^ >the middle ages.
[Glen]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Nevertheless, as of the middle ages it bore a strongly negative
connotation; which is the entire point.
[Shmuel] The same name can have different connotations for different
people. The word "Yankee", for example, can be simply a nickname
applied to the English settlers in Connecticut by the Dutch of colonial
New York. Or, the name "Yankee" can be used as a term of derision
given to a Federal soldier by a southerner during the Civil War. Or, it
can be used as a positive adjective by others as in the phrase "great
Yankee ingenuity". So also the name "Yeshu" can have different
connotations for different people.
For most Jews "Yeshu" is simply a simple nickname (Josh) applied to
anyone whose name happens to be "Y'hoshua" (Joshua) in Hebrew
or "Yeshua" in Aramaic. For others it could be used as an offensive term
of derision when written as an acronym, YSh"V.
==========================================
Yeshu = Yeshua (in Aramaic) = Y'hoshua (Joshua in Hebrew)
[Nancy]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
I realise that you rather say 'yeshu' (may his name be blotted out from
the living), than Yeshua (Salvation), but if Yeshua is Messiah you can
explain to Him why you said what you said on Judgement Day.
[Shmuel] The name "Yeshu" (Josh) is short-hand for "Yeshua"
which is the Aramaic version of the Hebrew name "Y'hoshua" (Joshua),
just like "Sam" is a short-hand version of "Samuel" in English.
The acronym YSh"V *rather* *than* the name "Yeshu" means
"may his name [and memory] be blotted out (from the living)".
___
[Nancy continued]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
It's more obvious each day, reading the constant blasphemy, why Israel
will MOURN instead of experiencing Simcha when Messiah comes
Zech 12:10
[Shmuel] The constant blasphemy of considering a human creature
to be the Creator will be silenced when the Messiah comes to set
the "Christians" straight. These Romans and their spiritual descendants
will mourn for the Jew(s) they have often thrust through with
their repeated words of hate and blasphemy.
Amen.
f***@hotmail.com
2005-10-17 18:51:40 UTC
Permalink
P.T. wrote:

...
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Nancy continued]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
It's more obvious each day, reading the constant blasphemy, why Israel
will MOURN instead of experiencing Simcha when Messiah comes
Zech 12:10
[Shmuel] The constant blasphemy of considering a human creature
to be the Creator will be silenced when the Messiah comes to set
the "Christians" straight. These Romans and their spiritual descendants
will mourn for the Jew(s) they have often thrust through with
their repeated words of hate and blasphemy.
Amen.
=========

Nancy is a Messianic Jew.

Do you *really* agree with Playfair when he characterizes Nancy as a
"spiritual descendant" of "Romans" who has "hate and blasphemy" for
Jews?
íééç
2005-10-17 20:06:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@hotmail.com
...
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Nancy continued]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
It's more obvious each day, reading the constant blasphemy, why Israel
will MOURN instead of experiencing Simcha when Messiah comes
Zech 12:10
[Shmuel] The constant blasphemy of considering a human creature
to be the Creator will be silenced when the Messiah comes to set
the "Christians" straight. These Romans and their spiritual descendants
will mourn for the Jew(s) they have often thrust through with
their repeated words of hate and blasphemy.
Amen.
=========
Nancy is a Messianic Jew.
Do you *really* agree with Playfair when he characterizes Nancy as a
"spiritual descendant" of "Romans" who has "hate and blasphemy" for
Jews?
Shmuel is applying a remez meaning to " they shall look unto me for the
thrusting thru of (me, him) and mourn for Him" Zechariah 11 I think.

that's not a literal of the prophet there. it does not say " the nations
shall mourn" as some English versions render.

the remez application is valid in relation to Isaiah 52 " many nations
shall be startled at him" relates to Messiah coming and the redemption of
the nation of Israel, the preserved and tribes of Jacob."
meaning that the goyim shall lament themselves for the continual hurt of
HASHEMS FUTURE PEOPLE who were his past nation, Israel. " and strangers
shall be joined to them" refers to Hosea 1, the end of Hosea 1"
Shmuel Playfair
2005-10-17 21:38:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Shmuel Playfair
[Nancy continued]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
It's more obvious each day, reading the constant blasphemy, why
Israel will MOURN instead of experiencing Simcha when Messiah
comes Zech 12:10
[Shmuel] The constant blasphemy of considering a human creature
to be the Creator will be silenced when the Messiah comes to set
the "Christians" straight. These Romans and their spiritual
descendants will mourn for the Jew(s) they have often thrust through
with their repeated words of hate and blasphemy.
[P.T.]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Amen.
[Oesterly]
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Nancy is a Messianic Jew.
Do you *really* agree with Playfair when he characterizes Nancy as
a "spiritual descendant" of "Romans" who has "hate and blasphemy"
for Jews?
[Shmuel] I do *not* characterize *Nancy* as one "who has
'hate and blasphemy' for Jews" as you *falsely* allege. While
she may well be a spiritual heir of the doctrines of Roman
Catholic Church, as far as I can tell, Nancy has *never*
expressed any " 'hatred or blasphemy' for Jews" in the years
she has been posting here. Rather, I characterize those Christians
who consider a human creature to be the Creator to be "blasphemous"
and those particular "Christians" (like yourself) who weekly if not
daily express their animosity towards Jews and others to be hateful.
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